S3 E23: A/B testing even the most basic assumptions with your audience with Kasey Luck (Founder & CEO, Luck & Co)


On this episode of Retention Chronicles, we’re joined by Kasey Luck, Founder & CEO of Luck & Co. Kasey, Noah, and Mariah chat about:

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This transcript was completed by an automated system, please forgive any grammatical errors.


brands, email, work, fiverr, marketing, love, talk, ecommerce, platform, month, clients, projects, loyalty, retention, product, purchase, customer, sms, e commerce, agency


Mariah Parsons, Noah Rahimzadeh, Kasey Luck

Noah Rahimzadeh 00:04

Hey retention pros. I'm Noah Raheem today and I lead partnerships here at Malomo. I'm super pumped to continue to chat with ecosystem experts alongside Mariah, who you all already know and love, say hi, Mariah.

Mariah Parsons 00:16

Hey, everyone, as you probably know, retention Chronicles likes to bring in some of the best retention focused brands in the Shopify ecosystem.

Noah Rahimzadeh 00:24

Well, we don't just feature brands, we also feature some great thought leaders in the Shopify ecosystem that serve brands.

Mariah Parsons 00:31

And because we always want these conversations to be fun, you'll hear us talk with our guests about what they're excited about and what's helped them get to where they are today.

Noah Rahimzadeh 00:39

We hope you'll stick around to learn and laugh with us retention Chronicles

Mariah Parsons 00:43

is sponsored by Malomo, a shipment in order tracking platform improving the post purchase experience, be sure to subscribe and check out all of our episodes at go malomo.com.

Noah Rahimzadeh 00:59

All right, welcome back newest episode of retention Chronicles. Super, super excited to have Casey lock here with us today founder and CEO of lock and CO of course. And yeah, it's been it's been a while coming, Casey. So we're really excited to have you. We'd love to kick it off with an intro from you where you're dialing in from and then before we get into the shop talk, we always like to ask one or two things that you're excited about your personal life. So I'll let you introduce yourself and take it from there.

Kasey Luck 01:34

Awesome. Well, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited. As you said, my name is Casey. I run I'm like in the My name is Casey look, I've run Lukashenko agency. We are a retention agency for E commerce brands. So we only work with E commerce and DTC brands. And we only do email and SMS marketing. So we're very focused very niche. We go very deep when it comes to email and SMS and we're very, you know, experiment focused and data focused. Well, where are the other questions? On exciting thing that's going on in my personal life, I actually have a lot of exciting things going on in my personal life. I recently had a baby. He's eight months old now. It's my first baby. It's not so recent anymore, but it still definitely feels like a big, big change in my life. It's awesome. We're also getting kicked out of the house where we live. Oh, that that's another question in San Francisco. Well, San Francisco Bay area. So we need to move out at the end of the month. And we decided it was a good idea to just move to Europe since we have to move anyway. Our little family is going to Europe for the summer. We have a plan for June and July. We're going to be in Turkey and Italy. And then we're going to kind of see if the little one likes this digital nomad thing. And if he does, we'll continue for another month or two. But if he hates it, he's the boss now. We'll have to come back and look for a new home that here in the Bay Area.

Noah Rahimzadeh 03:16

Wow. Okay, so,

Mariah Parsons 03:18

so exciting. Pac,

Noah Rahimzadeh 03:20

I feel like you and I talked like probably for the first time soon after, he wasn't so little like this was that a month ago this we probably talked like three or three or four months in to to new parenthood. So that's right. That's right. Like I knew that though. So major congrats. That's awesome. Thank you. What did he do to get you kicked out of your place in San Francisco?

Kasey Luck 03:45

The owner wants to sell the house, which we like triple check with him. Or like doesn't seem like good market for selling? You're sure you're sure? You're sure? He's like Yeah. So it is what it is. It's it's a great place, though. It's kind of it's kind of sad to to move. But you know, Europe is fun.

Mariah Parsons 04:06

We're excited. And I Yeah, that's so exciting. Can I ask anything special about Italy? Turkey specifically? Like why you're here?

Kasey Luck 04:13

Yeah. Well, Turkey is so I'm originally from Russia. And the whole thing going on with the war going on. We don't want to go back to Russia, ourselves. And my husband is from Russia too. But his mom, my husband's mom lives in Russia, and she hasn't met our son Andre. So we're meeting with his mom in Turkey and we're spending a month there with her so that she can meet her grandson. And then Italy like I when I was pregnant. I was like scrolling through Airbnb. And I was like, oh, wouldn't it be cool to like live in Tuscany for a month at some point and I was just totally daydreaming and like looking at the Front villas. And there was this one that was so amazing and so cheap for what it was. And I was at my mom's place. I'm like, let's just book it. And like, let's see what comes. And it was more than a year out. And I've never in my life booked anything so far ahead. I'm usually like, you know, three weeks out, I'm booking my trip. This was more than 12 months, I think this was like a year and a half out. And now it's happening.

Mariah Parsons 05:26

Now it's here.

Kasey Luck 05:29

And they have like a very nice cancellation policy, I think we can still cancel it if we want to. It's like, you know, up to a month out, we can cancel. But it looks like we're not canceling it. Because we need a place to live.

Noah Rahimzadeh 05:40

Oh, my gosh,

Mariah Parsons 05:42

but also worked out very well. So you were just going to go like for vacation?

Kasey Luck 05:46

Yeah, yeah, we thought we'd just go like for a month. And you know, we're planning to invite my mom and then my dad so. And we were thinking of inviting like, friends like we have a house in Italy. Everybody come, but now we have a baby. So we like closed out that invitation.

Noah Rahimzadeh 06:07

Right. And I would love to do this law. Yeah. Right now in Italy. That's so cool. Yeah, one of the questions I thought of when you when you said you were going to do a month in Turkey, and a month in Italy was like how do people normally do like month long stays unless you have family and friends already there? I would imagine it's Airbnb a lot. Is that what you're doing in turn?

Kasey Luck 06:32

Yeah, I'm a big Airbnb fan. For sure. Airbnb all the way.

Noah Rahimzadeh 06:37

Very cool. That sounds like the trip. got super excited to do with your new little one. So very fun. We'll have to we'll have to get all the stories when you're back.

Kasey Luck 06:49

Yeah, yeah. I'll post some on LinkedIn. Follow me on LinkedIn. Yeah.

Noah Rahimzadeh 06:57

Cool. Okay, so let's get into the founding of luck and CO maybe what you were doing that led up to the founding of an agency, and then you already told us a little bit about it. But we'd love for you to dive a little bit deeper on what you what services you offer, and the types of merchants you serve?

Kasey Luck 07:19

Yes. So I like long story is that I've always been in marketing. And I've always been doing marketing and email marketing specifically has always been my thing. I kind of fell into it in my first role after college. So I found it or it found me. But I've always loved email marketing. But over the years, I've worked in a couple of different companies. And then I was doing what I called independent consulting. And if somebody called me a freelancer, or said that I was doing freelancing, I would be like, No, it's independent concept. Consulting, the real I was a freelancer. And I would take on like any type of marketing project, and a lot of it tended to be email marketing, but for all types of companies, I worked with SAS, I worked with events, a lot of events. I did a lot of like, what is it called conversion, optimization, work, all sorts of sorts of things. And throughout all that work, I've always looked for a way to focus and niche down so that I could scale better, because I felt like all of the clients who hired me, hired me for a very specific thing that only I could do. And it didn't make sense for me to hire even like an executive assistant or something. Because all of the projects were so unique and so different from each other, that like for me to train people on all those things wouldn't make any sense because then the project would end. So I was looking for something that was repeatable, that I would be good at. And that would be exciting. And then, just by accident, I got my first ecommerce client, and they asked me to do email marketing for them. And I've never worked with E commerce. And honestly, I was kind of mostly focused on b2b and b2c kind of scared me, because I thought that I didn't know b2c. But, you know, they wanted to work with me, which was great. That was I had, like a much lower bar back then for you know, who I'd worked with. And, you know, it would be anybody who wanted to work with me. And I did an email project with them, and it went so well. And it got such immediate results for them. That I was blown away. And I was like, maybe this is it. Maybe this is my niche. I would just work with ecommerce brands and I would only do email marketing for them. And that's it. And so I decided to try that. And that was the beginning of 2020. It was January 2020. And I like kept the few clients like the few non ecommerce clients that I had to kind of you know, keep keep paying paying my bills. If everybody knew that was coming in, I was saying no to all new projects, unless it was ecommerce and I was actively looking for E commerce clients myself. And once I got my first two clients and did the projects for them, it went really well again, and then I just started hiring people and growing and that's how Lukashenko was born. And now we're 5015 people. Wow. And it's so crazy.

Noah Rahimzadeh 10:32

That is crazy. Okay, so I've got a lot of questions. I'm sure Mariah has one or two as well. That first like E commerce client, I'm always curious, like, how did they find you? Why did they think like, we're gonna give Casey a shot? She's done great work in b2b? Yeah. Is it more of like, you know, a friend of a friend saying they should check you out? Well, what was the story there. So

Kasey Luck 10:54

my little hack that I haven't talked about a lot was that I was on Fiverr. If if people are not familiar, Fiverr is this platform that helps freelancers productize their services, so that you don't have to, like approach each client and like, develop a new proposal for them. And like unique projects, you just have like productized services, like I'll do a sequence of five emails. And this is a price tag, and that or like, all develop your website, or like two pages on your website. And that's a price tag. So that's Fiverr. And historically, it's like a cheap, like a cheap place, right to get freelancers, and there are a lot of people from other countries where labor is less expensive. But a Fiverr also has this like, separate arm of their business that they call Fiverr Pro. And there you can charge much, much higher prices. So normally Fiverr, like the name Fiverr is because it's like fight, you can get a lot of things for five bucks. But Fiverr pro, you could charge like hundreds and hundreds of dollars for services. So I had a pretty active Fiverr pro account. And most like many of the services that I offered were email sequences. And they hired me for through Fiverr, I think.

Noah Rahimzadeh 12:14

Wow. Okay. Very cool. Yeah, go ahead. And Ryan,

Mariah Parsons 12:18

quick question. Yeah. So how do you get onto Fiverr? Pro? I'm just not familiar, like, I know the platform. But is it like you would sign up? Or is it after a certain amount of, you know, jobs that you take on regular five, you need

Kasey Luck 12:30

to apply? So you need to, at least back in the day, I haven't used it for years. Last time was probably 2019. But back then you have to apply and they had a pretty serious vetting process. I think they like even got on an interview with me in order to like approve me as a Fiverr. Pro. So yeah, that that was the process back then. I'm not sure what it is now.

Noah Rahimzadeh 12:57

Got it. Okay. Cool. I was just curious. Yeah. That's interesting. And then for that first EComm client, I imagined like the at least the ESP might have been different than what you were used to.

Kasey Luck 13:09

No, no. And I think that's, that was part of the magic, honestly, if they were already using clay, VO. And I've never use clay vo before. And so I just used, you know, the platform they were on, because my personal philosophy is that I don't want to move be like I don't want I try not to move people from their platforms. If it's working for them. If they have a problem, then yes, I'll help you find a better solution. But if the thing you have is working for you and for your needs, I don't want to move you to another platform that I know so that it's easier for me. So I got on to clay VO and I, like I fell in love with clay do like with that first project because it made a lot of sense to me. And I loved how visual their analytics was, and a lot of other things. So I guess that was a lucky, lucky coincidence, too.

Noah Rahimzadeh 13:57

And then you call the company login cow. And that's why it's not.

Kasey Luck 14:02

Honestly, I'm terrible at naming companies. It's like, it's a week a weakness that I have. And I remember that I was like trying to come up with this name, and luck and go obviously because my last name is luck. But also because it's kind of like Lucky like the play on words. But I actually what I did is, you know, hashtag Four Hour Workweek over the Tim Ferriss advice. I went to Facebook groups, and I would create polls, like you know, Facebook groups around like business owners or like agencies, whatever. And and I would be like, which name sounds better to you guys. And there was luck and CO and then there were like two or three other options that I was considering something like flame or like really. I'm like really bad. And some of the feedback that some people loved locking code, and I think it didn't want like when polling, but some people had comments like if I'm hiring Agency, I don't want to be relying on luck, or like something along those lines. And there were a few like that. And I was like, that's a valid point. But I don't have a better option. So

Mariah Parsons 15:12

it's also your last name to, like you have a reason or name,

Kasey Luck 15:17

I will have to go with it. So that's, that's why I look and go. It grew on me.

Noah Rahimzadeh 15:24

Having a hard time naming companies is like a great problem to have like

Mariah Parsons 15:31

a company problems, right. That's true. That's true.

Noah Rahimzadeh 15:37

That's all awesome. Okay, one one more question, then want to dive a little bit deeper into the business? I'm curious, especially for that first one. Like, what were some of the differences? You think there were that you saw, and probably still are today between the b2b marketing that you were doing and b2c? And why did you Why do you what do you attribute like all of that crazy success that you saw on the b2c side too? Early? You know, so quickly?

Kasey Luck 16:04

Yeah, I think one of the key differences is a much shorter purchasing cycle for in DTC and ecommerce in general, for most products, with b2b and SaaS, like, your consideration could be 30 days, 60 days, 90 days, we

Noah Rahimzadeh 16:22


Kasey Luck 16:23

Oh, you're right. You guys know, better than anybody. And, you know, because I never worked with b2c before. Like, that was my world. And that's all I knew. But in with E commerce and the the company that hired me back then for that first project, they sold, kinda like, cheaper jewelry, very low price point. I'm honestly surprised, like, I'm continuously surprised by how many different ecommerce brands are out there, and all of the different things that you can sell online that people buy and like that, you know, have market or has things that have market. But anyways, it was a an interesting product, like jewelry in the shape of a particular animal. But so a much shorter purchasing cycle. And so the reason I love email, I was actually reflecting on this recently, again, I'm English, just like the best marketing channel, it's the best of all worlds, I like truly and genuinely still love email, with all my heart. And the reason is that, like, it's the perfect combination of you having the space to like sell and to get into the, you know, into the meat of, of things and like talk to a customer. And actually, actually like talk about their hesitations and address their hesitations and talk about benefits, you don't have all that space in a social media post, or in an ad. Any, like, you truly only have that space on the website, or an email. And so I think all of my prior work really, like built a lot of foundation for me to help that client and get get those results that fast. Because my approach to everything and what I learned with b2b was learn what, what the customer is going through. So like customer centric, whatever, like there's terminology for it, like customer centric marketing or whatever, but the point of it is, like, actually try to understand what the customer is thinking about in this moment. How are they making the decision? What are the in you know, from b2b? Who do they need to talk to to make this decision? Like what are all the things that they need to consider? And so I just applied all of that with the b2c right ecommerce, but it's much easier with with b2c like they don't have to talk to anybody about buying that like cheap necklace. So you only need to overcome like, basic or like smaller, easier hesitations. And yeah, I just used all of that and built the email sequence. And because the purchasing cycle is so short, you get the results right away. And you can see how your email is converting, you can see how much revenue is bringing. And part of this magic is also like the CLEVEO analytics and their attribution model. I'm really like I really respect marketing platforms that don't inflate their results. And I know we're all very tempted to do it in marketing. But the you know, the fact that Klaviyo has that five day attribution window and not 30 Like a lot of other marketing platforms. I actually just reached out to like I was looking online for MailChimp attribution window because for one of our clients, I have to compare the results that they had in MailChimp because we helped them move from MailChimp to Klaviyo and what they have in clay VO and turn Now that MailChimp has an What is it unlimited attribution window. And I thought that a 30 day attribution window was bad. But apparently you can have unlimited attribution windows. So, I think that was a very long answer to

Noah Rahimzadeh 20:18

no, that was awesome. I

Kasey Luck 20:19

answered it. Oh, it's

Noah Rahimzadeh 20:20

like for MailChimp, it's like, if you ever gotten an email and then purchased that is attributed to I guess,

Kasey Luck 20:29

and I'm also confused, I guess like the use like last open or last click because what if I opened like three emails? Right? Which is right? Are you gonna attribute my revenue two or three miles? Probably not only the last one that I opened. Very interesting.

Noah Rahimzadeh 20:45

Yeah. Yeah, it's funny you say that about email being like your favorite channel still. And it's like, you have to say still like that. Because so many people have said for years that emails dead like when I when I did my first stint at a marketing tech company is a company called Return Path. And all they did was basically tell you what your real deliverability rate is like, no ESP does that out of the box, they give you a delivered rate, but it doesn't actually tell you what percentage of your emails actually reach the inbox, inbox. Delivery just tells you what percentage war blocked by an ISP. And so it's like a crucial, you know, crucial platform, but completely would be out of business. If email were truly dead. It's like, you know, purpose built for email as a channel. And when I started there, and like 2018, there was this talk of like, is email dead? Should we put it? I don't know, if it was executive saying that maybe we should pivot the business. But certainly, you know, us younger millennials were like, that, maybe we should like think about what we're going to do if email actually dies? Yeah, it's still the most profitable marketing channel, you know,

Kasey Luck 22:02

I think honestly, email went through like a, or is going through a renaissance period. Because when I was starting, I definitely thought a lot about like, why am I going into this email? You know, space sounds like everybody says it's dead. But that's what I knew the most. And that's what I really liked. So I just went with it. And I figured, you know, if it dies, then I'll pivot. But I'm glad that I went with my gut, because it's still here.

Noah Rahimzadeh 22:32

Absolutely. Yeah, I

Mariah Parsons 22:33

don't think Go ahead. No, no, I was just gonna say I don't think email will ever really truly be dead. Unless like something drastic, like you can't mark it in email anymore. Like something like privacy, maybe would be the last, you know, the last straw, but I really don't think we're just so used to email I couldn't, I couldn't see us not having it as a channel. That was all I was gonna,

Kasey Luck 22:57

you know, I'm very curious. And this is something I probably know very little about. But how younger generations use email, I think, like in our lifetime, emails gonna stay I'm not sure. Like, whether it's be as effective as it is right now. But they say that all these young people

Mariah Parsons 23:17

how very young and

Kasey Luck 23:19

yeah, have very different behaviors. So I don't know. But you kind of have to have email in order to like register for things. But again, that's how things work today, maybe it will Oh, yeah. I don't know tokens and stuff.

Mariah Parsons 23:33

Yeah, maybe yeah, maybe LFTs, or something floating space. But yeah, my two cents on that would be like just the purpose for email, it'll become more tailored. So like, I will never in the professional world, or in the academic world, email will always have space in my mind. Just because it is viewed as more like personal or sorry, more professional. I think, the purpose of email in like a personal standpoint, that's where maybe younger generations aren't using email the same way like text or some DM on a platform or, you know, like, something like that. But I do think that they're always or even like, with academics, like so many schools or universities use Google Drive now as their home base, right, and like, you need an email for that. So that's, that's my thoughts. But yeah, maybe, maybe something else will be will be new 20 3040 years.

Noah Rahimzadeh 24:43

How are you thinking about other channels because I think you do some SMS work now. Can you talk a little bit about, you know, incorporating that and orchestrating across the various channels that you're you're recommending and then implementing for for your For clients and maybe some like unique use cases that that you think like some people or a lot of brands maybe don't think about when it comes to

Kasey Luck 25:09

when it comes to that, when it comes to SMS, specifically,

Noah Rahimzadeh 25:13

not necessarily just SMS, but like orchestrating across channels with like, your unique perspective, that email is still, you know,

Kasey Luck 25:21

yeah, yeah, so we definitely do SMS like almost just as much as email, we really think that those two channels work together. It's like, I mean, technically, they are two different channels and have very, like unique qualities about them. But we view them together always. And whenever possible, we urge brands to have email and SMS on one platform, it just doesn't make any sense to have them on two different different platforms, because you have split and messed up attribution, automation, and segmentation is so much harder when you know they're on different channels. So to your point about orchestrating those two channels, and making sure that they work smartly together, and that they don't just like copy each other. And I think that's a very common mistake that some brands make that like Don't, don't have a specialized SMS person or partner is that they just like, send the same thing in an SMS that they do on email. And that's not the best use of that channel. So for all those reasons, having email and SMS on one platform is amazing. And that's how we manage that for our brands. And then like the like email, and SMS is our bread and butter. That's what we know, most. We also are, you know, work pretty deeply with loyalty and rewards programs. And that's where we collaborate with the brands, because we'll take on everything when it comes to email and SMS when it comes to loyalty rewards programs, right. But like, that's kind of the majority of how those programs work. So the brand would set up,

Mariah Parsons 26:56

like the, the program

Kasey Luck 26:59

structure, like how many dollars worth, how many points and stuff like that. So all of that is on brand side, and like we can advise, but then we set up all of the email sequences for loyalty rewards. And then within all of the other lifecycle emails like welcome flow, abandoned checkout flow, post purchase flow, we find opportunities where we should be talking about people's points. So that that's another kind of mistake that I see brands that do have loyalty rewards programs, if they have flows, activated specific to a loyalty rewards, that's like kind of the, you know, already a big win for them. But as soon as you go into other regular flows, like welcome abandoned checkout, post purchase, reorder, there's like no mention of people's points, there is no splits based on people's points. So like, if we're talking tactical things, if you're a brand and you have a loyalty rewards program, make sure that in your abandoned checkout flow, there's a split based on whether people have points or don't have points, and you talk differently to people who have points versus don't have points. And if people have points, don't give them a discount in your abandoned checkout flow, just remind them that they have points and that they qualify for a discount anyway. So that's like a very big missed opportunity for a lot of brands that I see. We also have started doing a lot with transactional email. And this is how we actually met. Because that's where I see one of the biggest opportunities for E commerce brands is just taking, you know, taking ownership over their transactional communication. And like, actually, I was I was preparing a proposal for one of the brands. And they saw that I think maybe in Malomo, marketing materials that like that, thinking or the messaging that of the moment like that post purchase moment between the time when somebody paid you money, and when you like when they have their product in their hands, that's the moment they're going to be the most engaged ever, because they gave you money, they don't have their thing yet, I've been preaching that like my whole ecommerce career. And that's how we think about that, like a general post purchase flow that we create for the brand outside of transactional. But that is so true. And all of those transactional touch touch points, whether that's email or SMS, or even customer support. Those are the most important things for your customer retention, the better experience people have during that time, the more likely they are to come back purchase from you again, or to recommend you to other people. So that's something that we work with a lot these days. And then also just kind of taking a more holistic view at retention and working with the brands, other teams when it comes to ads like the Google team and the meta team and making sure that whatever advertising happens on the retention side is synched with email and SMS. So we do things like we create special segments. And then we push that to Google ads or we push that to meta ads. Or if the meta team is creating a special ad campaign, like a lead gen ad campaign, where people directly enter the email list from Facebook or like from Instagram, we then take care of like, take care of people of those people as soon as they're in the email funnel or SMS funnel, and make sure that they receive unique and personalized messaging there.

Noah Rahimzadeh 30:33

Got it? Okay, those were all all awesome. Like very tactical,

Kasey Luck 30:38

a lot of different things. It's great. That's what happens when you ask very broad questions. Yeah, right.

Noah Rahimzadeh 30:44

Now, that's what I want you run with. It's perfect. Yeah, I love the I love the loyalty use case, we're seeing that more and more in our transactional triggers that we that we power. So very common use case now as loyalty gets bigger is basically exactly what you said, Casey, but you were talking about an abandoned cart flow. For us, what that would look like is, you know, in your out for delivery email, or your your package has shipped email. You're segmenting loyalty members versus non loyalty members, if they're a loyalty member, let's show them their points in that email, even though they have a package on the way, let them know that they just earn more points, and here's their current status.

Kasey Luck 31:34

And they'll feel good about it, and feel good about it, making people feel good.

Noah Rahimzadeh 31:38

Totally. And like to your point, it's the time in the customer lifecycle where you didn't say this word, but the way I think about it is like it's the most anxiety ridden time to because they have your money, you don't have your product very much to what you said. And you don't know exactly, you know, when your product will arrive, you don't know if there will be any sort of issue with it, if there will be any sort of delay. And so having those like, those nice things along the way, kind of, you know, Sue that experience. And then, you know, just kind of closing the loop. If you're not a loyalty member, why not use that opportunity when the customer is super engaged to promote the loyalty program, grab loyalty programs, signups or subscription program, signups kind of a very similar use case, when that customer is super excited about your brand. And you know, even though you might not get a ton of signups, especially in that email saying their order has shipped, you're reminding them along the way that once they do have that good experience, especially if it's the first time that they can come back and sign up for that subscription program, or that loyalty program and start, you know, earning dollars back or figuring out different ways to sort of save money through those programs, if they like it. So hopefully, obviously, we're a little biased, but we agree.

Kasey Luck 33:03

Yeah, and there's one other thing that I think, you know, things like Malomo helped with a lot is pushing referrals, like the referral program. Because one difficulty that brands might have with it is that they do it in the post purchase, like in the post purchase cycle. But unless you own your transactional emails, and you know, when the person actually received the product, the product, then you can like safely talk about referral. Because if you're talking about referring other people to somebody who are still missing their product, or had some problems during their shipping story, then you like you're just annoying that person. So I think that's another very good synergy between loyalty and rewards and transactional and Malomo.

Noah Rahimzadeh 33:54

Yeah, and I would say there's another use case there, too, where if you know that a customer is either already subscribed to the subscription program, or already in the loyalty program, they have a package on the way, right. But they they've had the product before we know this, because they you know, they're multi time buyer, they're in these programs. So they're high LTV, customers, very loyal to the brand, you can actually you can actually promote the refer friend program any time post purchase to them, because they're probably actually most excited about your brand. When that done that they know they like it's on the way to you, the anxiety is kind of gone. And all they're thinking about is man, I can't wait for this product that I know I love. And if they get those reminders to refer a friend, you know, give 20 bucks get 20 bucks sort of thing. You're you're now engaging with them at a time that's really, really exciting for them. And when, you know we believe they're very likely to actually take you up on that offer.

Kasey Luck 34:58

Yep, yep, that's That's a great use case.

Noah Rahimzadeh 35:03

Okay, we talked about transactional law. I'm curious, do you have any other, you know, recent projects that you've worked on whether it's related to transactional or not that you've been particularly excited about?

Kasey Luck 35:15

Well, I have lots this good, to be honest, I Well, I'm like in a very interesting period in my agency right now, where I was kind of transitioning out of being in the day to day projects, because I had to take maternity leave. But now, but then I got back. And we've been growing the team quite a bit. But it's also not enough, in order to take care of all of the interest and demand that we have. So I have been a little bit in the day to day projects. And I would like the team in general is doing a lot of exciting things. But some of the stuff that I like, personally worked with there. You know, it's, it's kind of I don't know if it's a basic thing, or not basic thing, but it's one of the most common conversations around email is people don't read, right? Like why sand long emails? People don't read anyway. And as an agency, we often get feedback from clients, or like, let's make this shorter. Like, why is this email so long, people don't read. And so we've done a series of A B tests, and I love that it was like really a series of tests, and not just one test that showed that for this particular brand, and, you know, like don't take these results and just apply them to your brand as this, I still recommend that everybody test because everyone's audience is different. But for this one brand, we tested shorter emails versus longer emails, and even like those shorter emails, like they still contain, like good information. And it was the brands actually, like the brand was advocating for longer emails, which is unusual for us. It was on on the devil's advocate side this time, but I was like, okay, yes, that's a valid test, let's test it. And much longer emails, one over shorter emails, and that brand, like, you know, like speaking generally, they sell sort of like supplements, stuff thinks, let's just call them supplements. And so their audience just really needs education. And they, they want to learn how the supplements work, and what do they do to your body? And like, what are the alternatives? And why do alternatives don't work, and all of that stuff. So I think maybe this like the the learning from the story is that it's worth testing, even like the most basic basic assumptions that you have about your audience. If you've never tested that tested, if it's been a while that you've tested that test that again. So that was really fun. And it was, it was fun to be like to be wrong. And to learn that hey, actually, no, sometimes, sometimes it's worth making evals, even longer than we feel that we need to. So that was fun. And then another interesting use case, from a brand that some of our strategists work with. So this brand wanted to do for Valentine's Day, it was a very interesting initiative. It was it was only marketed to existing customers. So people who have made a purchase from this brand before. And the idea was give your Valentine, a free pair of undies on us, and then exchange you will receive a discount towards your next purchase. And that campaign did fantastically well, like, you know, worked really, really, really great. And I think there were a lot of different elements of it that made it work so well. And that brand does use a loyalty rewards program. But for some very weird reason. I don't understand why but that loyalty rewards program doesn't like make it easy for them to do it. So our team actually found a workaround for how to audit like semi automate this whole thing without an additional platform. So just through Klaviyo, like flows and automations and some coupon codes to make it work. It was like a little bit clunky. Like I really think a lot of these things should be automatic. But for some reason that within the rewards program said that they can do it. Hopefully they're working on it. But you know if your product is a good fit for something like that, and obviously the on times day was a very, very good holiday for that. Not every holiday I think would like would work so well. But that's a very cool promotion that you can run.

Noah Rahimzadeh 39:58

Yeah, that is interest. thing that like a speck, like getting kind of in the weeds on that particular offer. You know, you're you're like offering that you know them to buy their partner underwear. And I imagine there's some like banking on you know, not all couples will last but maybe underwear will and it will stick with them and they like it and they go on to be lifelong customers.

Kasey Luck 40:29

And I think one other cool thing that this campaign achieved is another criteria were another condition of it was that you can only give a free pair to a non customer. So if you're gifting is already a customer with this brand, they wouldn't qualify. So this is actually really like in the in the world where all of the brands are looking for, like the next silver bullet and acquisition and everybody's struggling acquisition big time. I think this is a really great campaign. To help with that.

Noah Rahimzadeh 41:03

I love that. Love that use case. And I agree. I mean, I think anything to like lower lower CAC. And using, you know, what we talk about a lot, which is basically the use case we mentioned earlier of refer a friend and the post purchase experience driving those is like how can we? How can we help you engage your most excited customers to turn those into new customers? Right?

Kasey Luck 41:30

Yeah, yeah. And get your customers to do your marketing for you. Right?

Noah Rahimzadeh 41:34

Yeah, absolutely. I feel like we kind of covered all of the topics in these use cases, which is super cool. Or if anything from your end, before we move on to, to wrapping things up.

Mariah Parsons 41:47

I was just gonna say one of the things which This brings back. This brings up something that we've discussed previously on the podcast, but was minded of it with that use case for gifting to your partner and the and lowering the cat cost of. So Casey, one of the other guests we had on the podcast was talking about how they have gift note which basically It really tailors the experience to if you're giving a gift to someone, then making sure that like the email address that a brand is sending the communications to is tied to like the person that's getting the gift. Now, what do you remember this conversation? Absolutely, yeah. So I just remember that, like stuck with me. And obviously, it's been months since that conversation, but I feel like that adding that element to that use case that you shared, is also another way to make sure that segmenting and whoever is getting the gift is getting a different experience based off of this. Whoever sent the gift. Because you know that that's probably thank you and here's your discount, here's all the loyalty, referral points, whatever programs the brand has, that's what was going through my mind, in addition to just admiring the cool use case. Yeah, that's

Kasey Luck 43:15

a great addition.

Noah Rahimzadeh 43:16

Yeah, yeah, that is a cool one. It's like, it's like marketing toward the consumer versus the customer. Like if you're Donald's you're marketing toward to groups or marketing toward the kid with the happy meal, and the parent with ease and convenience. And, you know, it's kind of similar with gifting DDC, you want to have different messaging for those different you know, the buyer and the ultimate user of whatever that product is. But you also want to make sure first and foremost that you capture, right the the contact information of the person receiving the gift so that you can retarget them in the future. So yeah, we're I love that use case. All right, Casey, this has been awesome. wrap us up. You've had a very cool career. So far. 15 people in the agency just started three years ago. That's amazing. What's one tip or trick that sort of helped you get to where you are today, or more than one? If you have more than one? That's well, obviously there

Kasey Luck 44:15

were a lot of tricks, all tricks, a lot of learnings and lessons. But I think one general philosophy that I have, that I like I heard this saying early on in my career, and that really stuck with me, is asked for forgiveness, not permission. I really liked that approach. And, you know, I was I actually like Googled this phrase, just to make sure that I get it right. And like the little snippet that Google shows says like it's not about being reckless, but it's about not waiting for other people's permission or approval, to like to make things happen and to take action, and they think generally Being very action oriented. And another saying that I heard that also like is very close to me is something like never leave the sight of making a decision without taking action. So if you brainstorm or you made a decision make the first step right then and there. Because, you know, inspiration has an expiration date. Inspiration expires. And what is that word? Like motion and object in motion, object in motion stays in motion, but what is the like physical term inertia also matters, right? So if you just set it in motion, if you take that first step and take action, you know, the success is so much more likely to come. Because the success is just a matter of like taking action consistently. So, that's, that's a very important one to me. And I think that general approach helps me a lot in life.

Noah Rahimzadeh 46:04

Love those. I particularly like, don't ask permission, just ask forgiveness. It's wild, because I think the first time I heard that phrase was in a Drake rap song, I love it. Without giving too much away, because I probably shouldn't say this, but I'll just say we are right at the top of this hour speaking with one of Drake's brands, agencies, about one of Drake's brand so kindness is

Mariah Parsons 46:33

very top of mind for you.

Noah Rahimzadeh 46:39

And then the other one totally agree like you can't. It's half the battle. I think sometimes it's just starting. That's just Yeah. 100%. So I love this. This has been awesome. Casey, thank you so much for joining us lots of great tactical advice, tips and tricks for our E commerce merchant listeners or agency listeners. And just anybody who's generally you know, motivated to do cool stuff. So very much appreciate you coming on and sharing your insights.

Kasey Luck 47:09

Awesome. Thank you so much, guys for having me. This was a blast.

Noah Rahimzadeh 47:15

All right, talk soon. Thanks. Bye.