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customer, apparel, customer experience, returns, moms, brand, product, shopify, love, launched, amazon, days, talking, customer care team, retention, purchase, educating, marketing, bras, great
Garrett Akerson, Mariah Parsons
Mariah Parsons 00:04
Hi there, I'm Mariah Parsons, your host of retention Chronicles, ecommerce brands are starting to shift their strategy to focus on retention in the customer experience. And so we've decided to reach out to top DC brands and dive deeper into their tactics and challenges. But here's the thing, we love going on tangents. And so with our guests, you'll often find us talking about the latest trends, as well as any and all things in the Shopify ecosystem. So go ahead and start that workout or go on that walk and tune in as we chat with the leading minds in the space retention Chronicles is sponsored by Malomo. A shipment in order tracking platform, improving the post purchase experience, be sure to subscribe and check out all of our other episodes at go. malomo.com.
Garrett Akerson 00:58
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to retention Chronicles. Garrett, thank you so much for joining us today. Super excited to have you on I'm gonna have you say hi and start with an intro. Hi, Mariah. Yeah, thank you. Of course, of course. I'm so excited to have you here today. We were just chatting a bit before we hit record. But if you could give us your background, tell us about where you're coming from today. That would be great. Sure. Yeah. So my name is Garrett Akerson, I co founded a brand of maternity and breastfeeding apparel with my wife and 2015 called kindred bravely. And have grown that to where we sold a chunk of it in 2021, to a private equity group out of New York, and have an amazing team all across the US about 60 employees. And we've been remote from day one. So that's kind of an interesting side piece. COVID did not disrupt us in that respect too much. I think it was a challenge because everyone had kids at home all of a sudden, but other than that we were all used to working from home. Yeah, yeah. Okay. I love that. You mentioned that. Because so we have, we are currently remote as a company as well. I don't think we started as remote though, but I'd have to honestly check. So what was the motivation behind starting remote? Because I was in 2015. You said Correct. Yeah. 2015. I was running another company at the time. small boutique advertising design and development firm, are just burned out of like commuting into the office every day and working super long hours. And we had two young kids and I wanted to spend more time at home. So my wife, her background wasn't math as a math teacher, she was on maternity leave. And I didn't want to go into the office. She wasn't about to go into an office either. And, you know, we started this kind of as a during the nights, nights and weekends as a as a side thing. And and here you are now, or no, yeah. Never wanted to go into an office. So we never did. I love that. Yeah, I mean, I'm sure you didn't get too much protesting, especially when COVID hit and he was the the normal for you all. So I would assume Yeah. Yeah, it's one of our team members. A lot of our team members are our moms. So it kind of made sense from that respect to like, it's nice to not have to go into an office, I think, particularly if you if you have young kids. And it fits like kindred bravely as well, right? You're in the maternity space, making sure that you can both I forget, I read it on your website, but like have great products, and then also have a community of mothers who are going through similar stages, or just motherhood for the first time or in general. So being able to cater to being remote and having both a family and a career aligns itself very, very well. And so So was it around the I want to get into the founding story a little bit, because obviously, you and your wife founded the company, so we have to tap into it. Can you give us a synopsis of timeline? The motivations in case someone isn't familiar with your brand? Yeah. So, motivation, I kind of mentioned at least my motivation was I was feeling burnt out from running an agency. I wanted to do something in the E commerce space and DTC and was looking at a lot of different ideas. And my wife Deanne was breastfeeding our youngest at the time and couldn't find anything that was comfortable that she liked. She, it all started because she wanted a pair of comfortable breastfeeding pajamas. And she didn't get any for Christmas. And then her her birthday is in January, and she also didn't get any and I was like, I'll take you shopping and we just couldn't find anything. And yeah, so We were and she was in the office one evening as well. And she was like, Well, what about breastfeeding? Maternity, I can't find what I want. I know what I want. And that was that was the spark right there. I was like, Oh, I know, that sounds like an interesting idea. And we're fortunate that we live in San Diego not too far from LA, because neither of us had an apparel background. So it just started with us, looking for a couple local pattern makers. And then community doing a lot up, like on our, on weekends, to LA to the garment district to find material. Got the first product. So this was January of 2015. And we had a couple of prototypes, by I would say March, shipped them to three factories in China. And one never got back to us one, one sample was total junk, and then one was good. And obviously, we you went with that one, then yeah, we placed our first order, it was 500 units. So we launched, it was a pair of pajamas in black only. And five sizes, I think is what we launched with all in black. And we launched in May of 2015 is when we had our first product life. And most I want to say like half of those we probably gave away to like friends, Dan gave away in like her stroller strides or mom's roofs or here and there just to like get traction and get reviews. And we launched on Amazon and Shopify at the same time. But we pretty much just solely focused on Amazon in the beginning and pushing Amazon sales. I kind of understood Amazon's a nine algorithm and how to get that to work at the time. And it was just easier at the time. And in hindsight, you know, we didn't make too many sales at the beginning, launching pajamas and summers, not like everyone's Yeah. And so then we went back to the drawing board and launched two bras, which really took off. So that was I would say we launched two bras in October of that year. And then all of a sudden Christmas came around, and everybody's buying pajamas as well. So I think you know, we had our second order of pajamas by then. And things started to pick up. And then in January of 2016, I quit. The other firm I was working at and just focus just to focus full time. And Deanna was on maternity leave. So she decided not to go back to maternity leave. And we we went full time. And then we hired our first employee. In April of that year, because we decided to go to China to meet with we had by then we were working with like four factories, I think four or five. And we needed somebody to cover customer care. So we hired our first team member was in Customer Care. I was gonna ask what what role were they in? I feel like Customer Care is a good first hire. Okay, I have so many questions about just all of that. So I guess I'll start with the hire first. Was it difficult to make that first hire because it had just been you and your wife before kind of managing everything? Or were you ready to be like, let's get an awesome person on board and help, you know, help share in the in the role of responsibilities? I don't Yeah, it was not hard It in fact, it was one of Dan's friends from one of our mom's groups. So yeah, it was a mom. And she was part time. I think in the beginning, we were like, Oh, can you do like 2030 hours a week? She soon started, you know, working more than that. But yeah, it was, it was great. We've always been customer focused, like we talked about her the customer putting her first. So I think looking back at our DNA, it kind of makes sense that customer service was first. I know we will probably get to later because I saw kind of one of your prompts was on the marketing side. In fact, customer care on our team is who responds to all the comments on social media, and everywhere else as well. So we have a very, I would say the term we use are is like forward facing customer care. They're not passive. They're like very active, engaged in the community and talking with moms. Okay, awesome. Well, definitely. I want to go there and see what the motivation was behind that. Because I think just I mean, Commerce on online is interesting. That's why we're here but all those little things that maybe someone who's not in an industry wouldn't think through of like who's responding to social media comments and all that. Would love to dive into. But I wanted to ask you since you said you started on selling on Amazon, do you still think there's it's easier to sell on Amazon and to Shopify, or did that opinion switch or what's what's your opinion like current day of the selling on either A lot of headwinds I think on either. I mean, it's so the landscape is so different in 2023. Is Amazon easier? I don't know, I don't know that it's easier. They both seem fairly complex. Now. I think the issue with Amazon is just selling expenses are continuing to rise. And to compete, you're also pretty much forced to use Amazon advertising as well now to rank or not just to rank, but to show up since most of those SERPs all have, you know, paid results at the top now. So I think it's a lot more competitive, it is a lot more just more difficult and costly. So I think margins really matter on Amazon more and more than ever, they used to matter. But now they really matter. Just because it's it's selling costs continue to rise. I don't see that changing. That being said, it's not exactly like advertising is cheap. For social nowadays. So I think Facebook is, you know, it's also challenging. Yeah. Yeah, I feel like from what we typically hear from brands is, yeah, it's it's more of a toss up and the brands that we do have that sell on Amazon and Shopify, just the different knowing the different strategies, I feel like is what it comes down to not having sold on either myself and understanding like what will get you to rank and then like you said, the margins of like doing a cost benefit analysis and seeing what the differences between two platforms and you, you all are only DTC not in retail, is that correct? We launched and we launched in retail for the first time this year, so Oh, really? Okay. Yeah, we have a brand called Kindred by kindred bravely that launched in target. And we Oh my god. Okay. I think Yeah. Okay. I think I saw some images. Yes. Yeah. Okay, that's awesome. Congrats on that. I'm glad I asked them to make the difference. How was that experience launching in target? That's fun. I mean, it's it. It aligns with who we are, and where moms shop, right? Like she shops at Target. That was like the number one, like, where would you like to see us? The number one response was target. And we have an amazing CEO. She Her background was at target as well. So it kind of made sense from a relationship standpoint there as well. And, yeah, it's fun to see us in target. Yeah, it makes sense. Yeah, target is in this great place where it's kind of become like an experience kind of like an Ikea like to go shopping. Or what's another example like I'm, you know, where it's like, oh, you're just like, bored, like you and your girlfriends, or you and your family, or you and whoever or solo just go to Target you're like, let's see what I find. Right? Like it's becoming this experiential shopping experience, rather than just being a store and it kind of has that like culture and community around it. So like you said, you know, meet your customers, where they're, where they're going, I'm sure there's plenty of moms across you know, across the country and across different parts that are going to target and then see your brands sitting on the shelves and shopping, obviously, I love to shop. So make sense that you'd want to you want to be in one of the biggest retailers. Okay, another question before we get to back to the customer experience and social media and more marketing side of things. But you said when you got the first batch of, of apparel that you gave, let's say half of it away to friends and family and whoever else. I feel like obviously, we all hopefully know the strength of referral marketing and word of mouth marketing. So where have you seen if any, like those dividends pay off? Is it was it a really big like? Kind of like did it pay off I guess in the backend of things where you saw Oh, now you could ask these friends for like improvements in the product or testimonials or anything along along that pathway. Yeah, I think the answer is is both I certainly in the early stages we I don't want to say hounded but let's say we'll just say you know, hounded everyone for everything lightly here so for reviews and I think people forgive you when you're you know, you got a new startup like so yeah, for for for sure. Social proof reviews. In early stages were huge. And I think on the app Inside, you know, social proof ads still do fairly well. Depending. As far as product feedback, yeah, I think the product team is always looking for product feedback. It's nice that we're in basics. So we can we talk about, like we do continual process improvement, like, we're always looking at improving a garment. And customer care collects a lot of those responses. I don't know if there were too many in the beginning from the from that first batch. Because I know the product team also is always looking at like, oh, how can we improve fit? Or how can we, you know, improve this or that on a product? Okay, awesome. That makes Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, the UGC, to your point, doing well, with paid with paid media and paid ads. Yeah, still stands today. And I think that's a nice segue to get back to the question around, I guess my the first part of my question will be, what was the motivation behind having the customer care team kind of take on the responsibilities of answering questions or comments on social media, something that would traditionally fall into a marketers role? Yeah, I don't know if it was too intentional in the beginning. I think the thought process early on, was, well, the, it came from, if you look at, there's some studies that say, the first company to respond to any comment is the company that wins your business. So if if you see people talking about multiple brands and a thread online, typically the first brand that responds, it kind of wins the hearts minds, I don't know, sale, if you want to call it that. Not always, but it's just a way to be more engaged. And for us, Mark, our marketing team one was a little bit smaller, and was more focused on paid earned media, right, paid and earned. And, and so we've always just had a very engaged customer care team that really gets her understands her a lot of them are our her, you know, moms. So it just made sense for them to be the ones having having conversations and responding right away. And continue that to this day. So yeah, I'd imagine it has to do with like the relatability factor as well. Like, I haven't seen that theory before. Or just that principle, whatever you want to call it, that whoever responds first, and the thread is the winner of whatever it is trust, sale, connection, relationship, whatever. And I always try and oh, go ahead. No, no, go ahead. I was just gonna say I always try and look from like, think about when I'm shopping when I see something online or, you know, whatever, what my response would be. So I'm like trying to think through if there's been multiple brands or multiple responses to something where I've gone with the first first person to respond or what I would feel in that. And I think it would be like, Oh, Garner trust and their readiness and efficiency and replying that you'd like maybe carry that over to the customer experience, like, Oh, if they're quick, before I even bought from them, when I buy from them, then they would be quick and helpful on the back end as well. You know, and for us, like we have four core values we talked about a lot, we say we are brave, generous, encouraging and grateful. And so if you look at our social media and in particular responses, they're not. They're not salesy, and they're not even always talking about a product. A lot of them you see, just embody one of our core values, which is encouraging. So we think, you know, moms, anyone can always use more encouragement. So you'll just see real conversations on there or encouragement or, or just being there being helpful. Mm hmm. Yeah, yeah. That's a great point. I love that you brought it up. i We had happiest baby there VP of Marketing, on the podcast. And for our listeners, they have the SNU. And so she was talking about kind of the delicate balance of trying, like you want to be encouraging. You want to be educational, but it's a very vulnerable time period to be maybe starting your family or growing your family. And so having words of encouragement when maybe your customers are I'm struggling with something or they're new to something is a delicate balance to have. And so that's made me think of that when you're sharing that you want to, first and foremost be encouraging and hopefully supportive. And I think that speaks to what I at least read about the community that you all have. surrounding your brand, which I think is very admirable. Yeah. I think at Kindred bravely we're, we're certainly encouraging, but not to, not to a fault or not to like a false sense still being very real. Like, yeah, motherhood is hard. I think that's where the brave part comes in. Right. We think it takes a lot of bravery to be a mom. And so yeah, just being real as well. But being like, you know, you got this you are the you are the right mom for your child. Yeah, yes. Yeah. I love that. I love Yeah, exactly. The balance. Can you tell us more about that community? Does it? How is it like brave? Is there a specific name like brave moms? That you coined? We do? Yes, we do have a community called Brave moms. Okay. Yeah. Can you tell us more about like, if someone's interested? Is it for customers only is it for anyone to benefit from just in case anyone's curious to explore it? That community is open, open to anyone. And that is just an open Facebook group or groups created? Consider the same group community on Facebook. But to be honest, I think most of our interactions just still happen in people's feeds. And but yeah, there is also a Facebook group that's open to anyone. Yeah, love that. Yeah, I can imagine. Especially, I mean, I'm sure your customer care team feels the same. But there seems to be a never ending amount of comments or posts or anything to reply to, and get involved with. So I'm sure they have their hands. Busy with with that. So before we go into the customer experience, I do want to talk about or just touch upon some of the things some of the more some of the marketing plays, or the marketing strategy that you all are using at Kindred briefly. So what is I think we've already touched upon just through your core values, like what you all are striving to provide for your customers. But the one thing I wanted to call out on your website is you can shop by either like collections or shop by the stage that you're currently at, in your motherhood journey. So was that always part of the experience like your online DTC experience? Or with Shopify, your Shopify store? Or was there like a point in which you added that to the site? Yeah, so we added that when our collection got larger, so wouldn't have always been there. Certainly not the beginning, you know, when we had three bras and two pairs of pajamas. But I think as the collections grown, it just made more sense to have shot by stage or, or, or by collection or by best sellers. And you Shopify makes it pretty easy, obviously, to make new collections. I will say the still the most frequent and frequented collection is still best sellers. As a shopper, you're always like, oh, okay, what are the best sellers? Yeah, so fair. I know, I can relate to that from a consumer point of view. Okay, that's wonderful. Yeah, because that's something I try. And obviously, for this podcast, just do research and find little things that stick out to me as perhaps maybe not a typical experience and perhaps are more unique and find out what the motivation was, like, how you arrived at that. So I definitely clocked that. Yeah, yeah. And I think the other thing that's, that's the most challenging and where we're also unique and a little bit different is is size and fitting. And that I think is always a challenge, particularly if you're in apparel, and intimates is fit, right? So ways we can try to help customers find the right fit, to reduce returns. That helps and also it's just better from a customer perspective as well if you get something that fits well. And then so for us, one that's on the education side, side, hopefully up front, particularly educating about bra size, but second, our bra sizes are we were the first ones in the market to do what we called busty sizing, so different kind of even a different sizing. And so when you're looking at our products, you also I have a lot of other size ranges as well. Hmm. Okay. That's fascinating. Yeah, I, we had the suit shop team, come on here. And they were talking about just like tailoring of suits and all the intricacies that go into apparel that you would not know about it unless you're in the space of having to work with material and fitting it to each different consumer type, and body. And so like sizing guides, and working with manufacturers, and like, all of that I'm sure is, I'm sure could be a headache, but also, very much we pay off in dividends and customers are grateful for when you have something like you all, where you're really trying to think through what makes sense, what's the best for our customers? Like, how can we help our product to be the best for them? Yeah, and I think since neither of us came from an apparel background, we kind of came at it with a fresh set of eyes, particularly. So Dan was always head of product and customer and I focus more of my time on finance and marketing. But for her coming from a math background was kind of beneficial, because there's bras are very technical. And they're kind of she just took it as a problem solving lens, because you're dealing with either cup or band size. So it in some sense is like kind of an equation of how can you get the perfect fit across a set number of sizes? Yeah, I love that all the backgrounds. You know, I'm, I'm a believer, and you end up where you're supposed to go. Right? Everything feeds into each other. That's a really cool way to look at to look at it. So one more marketing question, and then we'll get more into the customer experience side of things. Actually, I have to just kidding. So returns, you mentioned returns, I was curious, do you get a lot of returns in your vertical? So apparel typically has some of the highest returns, right? return rate shoes and apparel. And then intimates also fairly high, particularly bras just because they're, they're challenging to fit. Yeah. Much more challenging than say, like, a, you know, a t shirt, obviously. But I think as for we're, we're below the industry standard. So we do, we do quite well. So you could have cup size bras that could have a return rate easily in the 30s. High 20s, mid 30s. But we're well below that. That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah, I asked because, yeah, apparel. I feel like that, yeah, apparel and shoes, just see how things fit. If they're comfy, like, you know, just the added mpg, where it would maybe be more tailored, or less tailored to bigger masses of people. I talked to us, you know, other friends in the E commerce space and the love return rates, they're like half a percent. And I'm like, so jealous. Get out of here. You know, it's it's similar to shoes. I think Zappos has returned rates for a lot of shoes are easily in the, you know, 20 20%. Even maybe in the 30s? Yeah, yeah, I asked because we a little while back, integrated with loop. And so returns and exchanges. And so now with integration, you can track, obviously, those returns and exchanges and initiate from emails, all that stuff that customers, you know, would want to see. And so now is a question that I'm super curious of, because just returns in general, with us focusing on post purchase. That's obviously someone getting their product to them. But then what happens, reversing, reversing the process with returns and exchanges? So it's always interesting to me. And I imagine that guide that you have, or just focusing on the fitting is why your return percentages are less than the industry average is? Yeah, I mean, it brings up a good point. We've done a lot of work to on the return side, to just make exchanges easier to either refund you immediately so you can rebuy even before we've gotten products back and just ways to make it easier for her to return a product to get the right size or exchange it. And then our Yeah, yeah. So it's so powerful. It's so cool. And that's another area where Customer Care is super involved and there to like help with Yeah, terms of exchanges and the customer experience. Yeah, customer experience of making sure that it's returnable and everything. Yeah, um, Yeah, so it's super interesting. I don't think it's super talked about all that much. So I love to grab someone's opinion on it when I can. And then my other marketing question was going to be, what's one because I know you said your time used to be more with finances and marketing. So what's one if you can think of one off the top of your head, one like marketing play or strategy or just anything in general that stood out to you that you really liked or went well, or that you learned from it can be any one of anywhere you want to take it. I know you said, obviously, when you launched the pajamas originally, and then you added browse to your catalogue. You saw success around there. But I'm always curious to hear what what sticks with people through the years. Yeah, a couple things. One, I'm a big proponent of just basic blocking and tackling and clean execution. So I think where we've failed before, is when our messaging has tried to cover too many things. So if we're trying to do like a logo plus a door buster, plus, like a limited time, or, or we're doing a BOGO and a door buster, and we're launching a new product, you just cannot message across that many things. So where we've always had the most success is where we can align the ads on the paid side paid social with where you're landing on the site. And it's just very clear communication. As far as like product launches, one that comes to mind, that was last year was our sleep pumping bra. And it just had really clear communication. And it was, I want to say the the the tagline on it was sleep pump, repeat. Oh, that's awesome with with just a great image. So I think you can never underestimate just like really crisp, ad copy that's clean, that's focused, that has a great image. And it kind of for us, I think, to me, that also translates to sale sale period sale weekend, if you try to cover too many things, or it's kind of muddled in the customers mind. It's just it, it doesn't work as well. So creating a really clean campaign. I would say biggest win there. It over the years, those have been the ones that have done the best. Yeah, yeah, I love that. We haven't had that yet. So that's a great, great for our podcast listeners. So now we'll transition into more of the customer experience side of things, customer retention, talking about post purchase experience and all of that. So I always like to get people's opinions on just real generally, what do you think retention is? How would you articulate it to someone who's maybe new to the industry or not new? What does it mean to you? Retention? So me I, I would define retention as your ability to retain a customer for X period of time, preferably longer and with some frequency during that period of purchase, I think in us being in apparel and being in breastfeeding and maternity, its retention, we have a pretty short window, right? We're not a subscription model. We're not CPG. Like, we're not a consumable. So obviously going to vary greatly by what you're selling. And yeah, for us, it would be if she can, can we get her? Can we bring her back for a second purchase? A third would be amazing. But you know that that window is pretty short. Or you're breastfeeding? Pregnant? Breastfeeding? Yeah, because I was thinking about this trying to, I guess, guess what? Retention looks like for you and your team in that. My guess would be either, obviously, when you're in the stage of, let's say, breastfeeding, and that's one cycle for that specific child. But then there's if you're going to have multiple children, then there's also like that opportunity, right? Where maybe you're looking at years or, you know, a year wherever the customers landing with their family. And so I imagine there's kind of In my head, like there'll be two different experiences where it's during the same cycle in which you're trying to make sure that your customers happy and maybe having a repeat purchase in there. And then also trying to say top of mind for the next possible child. So is that is that kind of what you all are considering? Or is that off? No, that is. And that was really fun to see, like, as a brand once we got old enough, right? Because you want to 2015 Or like, Oh, I wonder someday, you know, when someone's going to come back when they've had a second. So it is fun to see in the data when she comes back for her second or third child. Yeah, that is a very long cycle, right, that you wouldn't see in a lot of businesses where you see that that gap for a year or two? Well, more than a year usually like two. Yeah, yeah. Okay, cool. So how would you then fold customer retention and customer experience into each other? How do they how do they how are they symbiotic? Or not? In your opinion? But great question. Um, well, okay, I think how they're symbiotic is, if you don't have a great customer experience, your retention is probably pretty low. As as a brand. Again, so it goes back to, for us just making sure that we meet her where she's at, as far as customer experience, like, purchases is easy. Hopefully, returns are easy if if needed, or exchanges. And that you I think you want to buy from brands that you just identify with, they make you feel good. We internally we say so remember how you make her feel? Like you don't remember, like, maybe you remember, like, a shirt or a brand. But for me, it's like hey, the feel. And even in apparel literally, you can remember how it makes you feel like Oh, I feel good. I feel confident. Yeah. I feel comfortable. So, you know, she remembers how you make her feel. So I think that's the customer experience side. And if you if you accomplish that you win at that. Then I think you also win at the at the retention, like she'll come back and shop from you again, because she remembers you. Yeah, yeah, I love that you brought up the point of how you how you make her which I love that. That's kind of your, your ideal person or just your general community. Using that concept of how you make someone feel like that's what sticks with you from, I know, from when we're talking just as a team or with our brands, where it's the little things that add up that are sometimes hard to quantify. And, of course, we want to try and quantify everything that we possibly can to try and make it a repeatable, but in customer experience and having those, you know, your team at the ready to respond to someone if they're struggling with this fit or need help with this return. Or if they I don't know, need something is with their order, something happened, I'm having that experience. And even if you have a customer who maybe is frustrated through the order process, or through the returns process or through something, then a customer can still be frustrated. But having feelings of a connection with the brand, even in their frustration will probably keep them coming back for more because they understand that you're working with them to work through it, rather than just kind of leaving them out in their own life without having that support. And so it's I'm glad that you brought that up, because it's another way that we internally look at order tracking, because we're always saying like, you don't want to leave the customer in the dark, right? You want to make sure that they're comfortable, and they know where their order is that they just spent their money on. And that you leave them with those feelings of we're there to support you whatever that support looks like if it's actually in the apparel or the customer experience or in order tracking or whatever it may be. Yeah, I think for sure from you know, the moment she orders to, you know, trying it on part of that on like the order tracking part we've we've looked at different windows to for shipping, like oh, what happens like, is there a difference in conversion? If she knows she'll get it in two days or three days or four days? Like does she really care and then tracking along the way? So I think there's there's a lot you can do there from a customer perspective. to one, keep them informed, but also to test like, does your customer care? If they get it in two days? Three days, four days, five days, maybe you can get like, you know, half a percent. And conversion increase, if you say, hey, we'll get it to you in two days. They can make up for the shipping difference if you're if you're eating the shipping. Versus like four or five days. Yeah, yeah, I love that point. Did you find that there was a difference? In that test you ran? So yes, there is a difference. But as far as our Tesco, our customer, she doesn't mind if it's four or five days versus two or three, doesn't seem to be that big of a difference. Okay, that's great. Yeah. Another another point for listeners to take their experiment? Yeah, it's definitely worth testing and experimenting. And I think it obviously varies quite a bit by product. Like, I don't think you need you. In general, you probably don't need a t shirt or a bra like hey, I need it right now. You know, yeah, if four days versus two days, and unless you're going on on vacation, and you're, you know, buying clothes for travel, unless it's an emergency. Yeah, exact emergency, then it's different. But usually it's not. Yeah, and usually, hopefully, people would plan for a little bit further out. But now with, you know, Amazon two day delivery, becoming a norm, you know, I feel like Amazon shifted people's perception, but then COVID kind of shifted it back a little bit. Yeah, that's a great point that COVID Probably shifted, actually, most definitely shifted people's expectations in the in the reverse way. Well, yeah, I feel like I Amazon, there's plenty of Amazon packages, where I'm like, wow, that's four or five days away before I'm gonna get that product or if it's on your preferred shipping day. And that only came about during COVID, where even Amazon kind of shifted some of their days out. That being said, obviously, you can get Amazon stuff next day or two days still, but it definitely has changed. And then I think the overall DTC space, it's shifted a lot to just with shipping rates going up. And everything we're we're seeing, I think you're seeing a lot of variability and in shipping times, and shipping windows and who's charging for shipping or returns and all that. That whole landscape has, has changed a bit post COVID as well. Yeah. Do you have a strong opinion? And it's fine if you don't, but like charging for shipping versus not? Because I have heard, obviously, or I've just seen people's opinions on it. So yeah, um, I don't know, we've never charged for shipping over a certain, you know, over X dollars. Shipping has always been free on our site. And it's changed throughout the years, I think when we launched, it was free shipping over 50, we might have even had it at 45 at one point and then moved up to 60. And then, you know, it's so it has moved around. And I think that's just a balance from a company of trying to balance out shipping costs. With customer expectations. I typically don't like brands that charge for shipping, although I get it under a certain threshold. So I think we've just kind of gone with the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense. Okay, awesome. Um, one more question. And it's in the realm of post purchase that we're talking about. But educating your customers just because we've discussed I think a little bit about how you are educating or just striving to educate and encourage with your social media practices and, and having a clear and concise you know, experience when there's when her when she's shopping with you. So can you talk us through? What how are you educating her when she's buying with you specifically after she's bought it? Are there? Are there blogs you're sending? Are there you know, Is there information around specific? Maybe customer if you know, she's in this stage, from the products she's buying, then are you purposefully trying to educate with specific content? I will say we've tried through the years to do email by stage. We haven't had much success there's it's been kind of a hard row. That being said, I think there's a huge opportunity, right post purchase to reduce post purchase. Regret and anxiety. You know, there's all of us have had like, oh, man, you know, I just bought this and it was Did I really need it? Yeah, I really need it. So, to answer your question, Yes, we send out a variety of emails post purchase, we have a whole post purchase flow sequence. And one of those, you know, order tracking and at the same time just talking about either brand or values for us like in that first or second email. Think it's a way we try to reduce post purchase. Regret anxiety. And just make again goes back to that feeling like how does the brand make you feel like you have a chance right away? Think before even a customer gets the product to influence how they feel about it, and educate a little bit on fitting. So yeah, that flow is a mix of either stories, because I think we all connect with stories, or helpful tips or links to the blog, and then at the right time mixing in like, you know, post purchase upsells or, or opportunities for, like, introduce customers to other products. Yeah, I love it. Okay, awesome. I'm gonna cut us off there because we're getting close to the hour even though I want to continue going because I definitely have more questions. But this is so so amazing. Garrett, thank you so much for taking the time to share more about you and your story and kindred basically. It's been phenomenal getting to learn from you from last hour. So thank you Mariah. Yeah, that's fun.