S3 E9: Focusing on Shopify apps that save money & prove ROI with Jim Breese (Head of Growth, AppHub)


On this episode of Retention Chronicles, we’re joined by Jim Breese, Head of Growth at AppHub, an agency that delivers a comprehensive suite of ecosystem leading apps and unparalleled customer support that helps e-commerce businesses reach new heights. On this episode, we discuss:

  • entrepreneurship and finding passion in content,
  • how 93% consumers look at reviews,
  • Shopify apps that save money and prove ROI,
  • customer retention and saving costs,
  • how attention is the currency of the internet,
  • reasons someone would sunset a DTC brand, & more!

Be sure to subscribe to our pod to stay up-to-date and checkout Malomo, the leading order tracking platform for Shopify brands.

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This transcript was completed by an automated system, please forgive any grammatical errors


people, business, app, reviews, customers, shopify, retention, merchants, brand, year, called, big, categories, acquire, costs, founders, create, awesome, e commerce, question


Noah Rahimzadeh, Jim Breese, Mariah Parsons

Noah Rahimzadeh 00:04

Hey retention pros. I'm Noah Raheem today and I lead partnerships here at Malomo. I'm super pumped to continue to chat with ecosystem experts alongside Mariah, who you all already know and love, say hi, Mariah.

Mariah Parsons 00:16

Hey, everyone, as you probably know, retention Chronicles likes to bring in some of the best retention focused brands in the Shopify ecosystem.

Noah Rahimzadeh 00:24

Well, we don't just feature brands, we also feature some great thought leaders in the Shopify ecosystem that serve brands.

Mariah Parsons 00:31

And because we always want these conversations to be fun, you'll hear us talk with our guests about what they're excited about and what's helped them get to where they are today.

Noah Rahimzadeh 00:39

We hope you'll stick around to learn and laugh with us retention Chronicles

Mariah Parsons 00:43

is sponsored by Malomo a shipment in order tracking platform improving the post purchase experience, be sure to subscribe and check out all of our episodes at go malomo.com.

Noah Rahimzadeh 00:59

Sweet Welcome back, everybody to the next episode of retention Chronicles. Really excited for today's episode, we're joined joined by Jim breeze who's head of growth at app hub. Jim can probably do a much better job explaining app hub than I can. But I recently came across them at a couple of conferences at the end of 2022. met John who I think might head up BD or something similar for XM. Ops. Yep. And we talked in just seemed like a natural fit to have these guys on the podcast. So really happy to have you, Jim, and appreciate you joining us.

Jim Breese 01:41

A Thank you for having us, Noah, Mariah, really appreciate it.

Noah Rahimzadeh 01:44

Awesome, awesome. So Jim, you know this, but we'd like to start every episode before we get to the shop, talk on a couple personal notes. So we'd love to hear one or two things that you're really excited about in your personal life right now.

Jim Breese 02:01

Yeah. I mean, there's two main things I have like a few focus points this year a lot is to be around. I want to get a dog this year. I had a dog for a long time. And our last dog passed away in February last year. So I've been kind of waiting and say, Alright, it's now time to get a new one. So I want to get a dog this year, and I want to get a West Highland terrier. I think we had one when I was growing up. And now you see him all over Instagram, like gotta get it again. So that's one thing. And then I think taking a trips like taking a lot of trips this year. I want to go to Hawaii. My wife is from there. So we'll go out to Hawaii and kind of do an outer island trip and see some paradise. I'm in Detroit, Michigan is gray. It's 35 degrees. No

Mariah Parsons 02:40


Jim Breese 02:41

Yeah, it's no Hawaii. So there's that and you know, maybe just exploring the Upper Peninsula of Michigan and kind of get to see some more nature and more, you know, things like that. Awesome.

Noah Rahimzadeh 02:52

So I had to look up West Highland terrier.

Mariah Parsons 02:55

I did the same thing. I had to confirm I was like, dawn on the Caesar.

Jim Breese 02:59

Food, you know? Yeah. Yeah.

Noah Rahimzadeh 03:02

Nice. That's awesome. Mariah. Do you have a dog? I haven't had a dog since I was like a kid.

Mariah Parsons 03:09

Yeah, growing up. We had one. A French Bulldog. The cutest thing in the world. Her name was Bree. So definitely after the French cheese, but yeah, that's the only dog I've ever had. But I mean, if it was up to me, and I didn't have to have the responsibility. I feel like I'd have many pets but yeah,

Jim Breese 03:28

totally, totally. I love these just make your life so much more vibrant. You know, having a dog in the house. I'm here working in my house all day by myself. It'd be nice to have like, you know, something to kind of hang out with and just like tooled around with during lunch or whatever. So we'll see. Yeah, it

Noah Rahimzadeh 03:43

forces you to get outside too, which is not always easy for us in the Midwest. Yeah, especially during these months. So that's awesome. And then Jim Hawaii is like literally top of my list of anywhere in the world that I want to go I've I've visited a lot of places but I'm even outside of the country but Hawaii I haven't been to and of all the places in the world I think it's like literally at the top Have you been before?

Jim Breese 04:10

Yeah, I've been like I think six or seven times my wife is from there. So we go there like we used to go there every year the pandemic hit. She's been back subsequently since the pandemic started but I'm going to be going back with her this year so it's it's a beautiful place you know, and you're like wow, this is part of our country here you know, like these are it's such an amazing place you know, the plants there the the water it's just an amazing the food the people. Yeah, I love it there. So I'm excited to go see the other islands I've been to a wahoo for every one of our trips. So I want to go see kind of, you know, the big island and some other places that are a little more remote and kind of get that vibe in there. The island vibe.

Noah Rahimzadeh 04:47

Awesome. Are there any things that are there any places or like excursions that you would say people don't think about but when I go for the first time, for example, I should absolutely do but I won't like necessarily find different discus search best things to do in Hawaii?

Jim Breese 05:02

You know? That's a great question. I think that one of the things that I didn't know was being out there was shrimp trucks. So there's this thing like where you drive down the kind of the highway, there's these trucks, there's one called a home and I don't remember the names, but you'll see and when you're going up on the east coast of a wahoo, you can start to see on the highway these trucks and they're so good, but the line is so very long, too. So I think that's one of the things is to get the shrimp trucks and try to find some smaller beaches that are kind of off the beaten path. You know, I think that there's a lot of beaches like in Waikiki, where it's like, Hey, this is where all the tourists go. But if you can kind of get like, where the locals go, that's, it's really really cool. You know, we got to see sharks clean is called shark's Cove just kind of snorkeling and seeing animals and just seeing different little tide pools and stuff. It's very, very interesting. You know, something you don't get out here in Michigan has tons of beautiful water to explore. But what's out there is just something else. So yeah, lots of food Golka and get all the kind of local food they got local kind food. It's awesome.

Noah Rahimzadeh 05:58

Yeah, like one of my favorite foods, even here in Indianapolis is like ASA equals and what's that? What's the one with like tuna and salmon?

Jim Breese 06:11

Oh, hockey balls. Yeah, okay. Yes. Yeah.

Noah Rahimzadeh 06:15

So I would be in hog heaven

Jim Breese 06:17

there in Hawaii. Yeah. And why Lou, I think is what it is. There's a couple, like every How would you call it the grocery stores have like some awesome, pokey. So you go out to like, I think it's Wailua. And they have some awesome grocery stores out there. They kind of have all different kinds. So yeah, if you like fresh fish, go out there and get all the kinds of fresh fish from the smallest places you can think of. sounds incredible. Yeah,

Mariah Parsons 06:40

this is making me want to just play the trip. After this call.

Jim Breese 06:44

Food. Food land is the greatest like, grocery store out there. They've all this kind of food you can take with you out there. But um, yeah, it's just it's a cool place. I love it. That's awesome.

Noah Rahimzadeh 06:53

All right, maybe the next Malema Summerfest

Mariah Parsons 06:56

I was gonna say do you think convinced the team? So awesome.

Noah Rahimzadeh 07:01

Before we get into gym, I'm also curious. You're in Detroit now. Have you always been there?

Jim Breese 07:07

Yeah. So I grew up in Detroit. After college, I'd moved out to Los Angeles. Actually, I spent 11 years out there. And then in the middle of the pandemic, I moved back to Michigan. So I've been here for about two and a half years now. So yeah, I'm gonna kind of just in Detroit, East Lansing, went to Michigan State University. And then yeah, I went to LA I lived in downtown LA lived in Pasadena by the mountains. It's just like, it's a beautiful place. California is an amazing place to go spend and I cut my teeth out there for you know, all my bit my business stuff. And it was like being a very hyper competitive environment. This one startups were kind of being like the cool hot thing. Everybody had to have a tech startup or they were working in tech. And it was just like, the place to be at so I'm very grateful for my experience out there in California. Well, that's I'm sure it taught you a lot. Yeah. Oh, yeah. You're playing with like, all the top players in that space. You know, I know great. You know, San Francisco is got a lot, but there is a lot of people still in there is a tech scene in LA. They may not seem like that, but maybe more entertainment tech, but there are a lot of things going on out in LA, and you're very connected to San Francisco. It's just like a one hour flight or up there, you know, so it's not too far.

Noah Rahimzadeh 08:13

Right? Yeah. That's a great transition. Because my next question was like background, what did you go to school for entrepreneurship or general business? And I was just, like, Well, what was the How did that all play out?

Jim Breese 08:29

You know, I didn't really think a lot about going when I went into college, what I was going to do, like a lot of my friends were like, we're going into the business school and doing finance and I was like, Okay, this seems like fun. I'll go do that. And I'm really good with math. I was doing like AP Calc and things. I was like, Alright, let's do finance. And so I got a degree in finance and then and then that was pretty much it. I learned entrepreneurship is like as a kid, I was the one selling Pixy Stix and like going to Costco and getting stuff and like selling stuff on my locker

Noah Rahimzadeh 08:54

costs. The parents pick up like the 50 pack of m&ms. Yeah, actually got in trouble for that. Like, they're like, You can't run a business out of your middle school.

Jim Breese 09:05

I was competing with the school store. And I was like, I don't care out of the locker. Yeah, I'll do it for ADA. Don't worry about it, you know. So that was kind of the thing. It's, you know, I like to find value. I like to help people. I think entrepreneurship is a great vehicle for helping people solve problems. And it's something I like to do. I like to think about a lot of things and then go execute on them. So entrepreneurship was just a natural progression of my finance background and just other things I've been involved with.

Noah Rahimzadeh 09:30

Awesome. And so when you moved out to LA, did you actually like start something yourself? Or did you just join a join a startup like, what was that path? Yeah,

Jim Breese 09:39

I had a very long different. See, lots of turns in my career. I went out there. I had no job planned. And I went on Craigslist, and I started selling insurance like kind of a scammy insurance job and it's just like something that keeps me going, you know, and then I worked at Panda Restaurant Group, so they own all the Panda Express is around the world and I I got a lot of great experience there. It's probably one of the best corporate jobs you could ever get. They take very good care of their people. They also like drill into you great operations and execution, excellence and things of that nature. And they allowed me to work in different departments, I was in the I started in the mailroom, then I went to finance. And then I went to brand marketing. And when I was in brand marketing, I was like, oh, man, there, there's a lot of good opportunities in foods. So I started a tea company. And I moved into that and started a loose leaf tea company is when like, Teavana was really poppin. And Starbucks was leaving their golden years of Starbucks. And then from there, I got more into like content marketing and, and blogs and things of that nature. So I didn't really work too much in tech, myself, but I did a lot of consulting in tech for marketing. So my background got more into marketing. As I progressed, my career, I just thought there was just so much cool stuff with marketing, I thought marketing was scammy, when I was growing up, you know, just TV ads, and you know, the phone book, right. But then I started using, like, you know, Facebook ads and Google ads and kind of peeling back the layers of what can be a great marketing tech stack and a great marketing, you know, content strategy. And I just fell in love with content. So a lot of the businesses I built, I've built with content, you know,

Noah Rahimzadeh 11:09

awesome, awesome. And then take us take us to APA. Like, what, what ended up leading to that?

Jim Breese 11:18

Yeah, so I worked at a CPA firm for in the cannabis industry specifically. And I did a lot of work there a lot of content work there as a CMO. And one of the ladies or one women, I got hired, she worked there for a while. And then we both kind of left the company the same time, I was helping consult on her business. And then she gave me a phone call, you know, after a while, and it's like, Hey, I met this new startup called App hub, and we need someone in growth, would you want to interview for the position and it was like from, you know, that first call, maybe like, three weeks later, I was at the job. So wow, I was just like, that's like, my biggest advice is like, you know, always help the people that are around you. Like, I'm a big proponent of doing free work. You know, I think it's important to do free work to help people out to get into other people's businesses and see how they're running what they're thinking about. And that's kind of how I got this job, you know, and I've gotten most of my jobs, you know, not the corporate job, but a lot of my jobs came through doing free work, demonstrate your your ability, and people will pay for it, and they see that value.

Noah Rahimzadeh 12:15

Yeah, that's a really interesting take. I've, I have a similar, I guess, mindset, but it's more derived from like, so many people helped me when I was younger. In my career, I started I co founded a company out of school, and then worked for a bunch of like, litany of enterprise mahr tech companies, I think for probably a lot of the same reasons that you ended up going the marketing route, Jim. But now I just find so much value in like paying paying that forward. Yeah.

Jim Breese 12:47

Even if like nothing directly comes back, like the feeling of knowing that you just help somebody that like was once or like, You were once in their shoes is just so awesome. Yeah. And you get smarter. You know, the more things that you touch, the more businesses you get into, like, I was invested for a while and just like had a startup founders group, and I got to work with like, 12 different founders every month, you know, on their businesses, and they were all at different stages. So it was a very, it was like my MBA, you know, Vistage was a great experience, too. So I think it's excellent to do good work for people and free work, if you can, if you can afford it. I know people have. It's a polarizing topic. I can understand that. But you got to pay it forward. Yeah. Yeah. Whatever you can do, right? Yeah. Create your own luck, you know, no one's gonna give you your opportunity. You got to create that for yourself.

Noah Rahimzadeh 13:29

Absolutely. Okay, so getting into Apple a little bit. I would, I would argue it might be like the most unique partner that we've sort of had on the podcast in the sense that, my, my take on it and like, correct me if I'm wrong, but you're almost like an app aggregator, like you bring apps in and kind of stitch them together to create. Maybe it's not a one size fits all, but it's like ala carte options that all talk to one another and sort of hit the most prominent categories across the Shopify app stack. And that that is probably ignorant of me to say Shopify, because I don't know if it's all exclusive to Shopify, but that's my understanding. Tell me what, like, where I'm right where I'm wrong.

Jim Breese 14:17

Yeah, I mean, so at its very, very core, we are an app aggregator, but that is a very unsexy term. And it really pulls away the kind of No, no, it's this isn't a category we're in right, like, but I think, you know, there's a thesis out there that there's a lot of great technology out there. And there's a lot of great builders out there and they like to build amazing products, but they need help with a lot of different other aspects of their business. You know, finance, marketing, taxes, customer support, HR, like no one likes doing any of that stuff. You know, developers like to sit in front of their computer and develop. So we wanted to give these like founders, a little bit of liquidity, and put them into a container to focus on building valuable products while a team of professionals can come in and do each discipline and help with everything else. So you know, we've acquired a fair I'm on a company's I think seven or eight companies at this point in different sectors, mostly Shopify primarily on platform at Shopify. And then there's some that are off Shopify, like reviews.io and viral sweep, and then some of the other ones that are on Shopify have connected with Bigcommerce WooCommerce. But yeah, Shopify plays a big part in to our business. You know, we're kind of tied at the hip for the moment.

Noah Rahimzadeh 15:22

Okay, that was so much better said than. So, real quick, are all the just to be clear, are all of the apps under the portfolio Shopify compatible or some not today?

Jim Breese 15:39

Everybody is Shopify compatible, so everybody is on Shopify? That's yeah. So everybody is on Shopify, it's some new off platform as well.

Noah Rahimzadeh 15:46

And then I think I heard this correctly. But it was it was actually a question I had, when you acquire a new app, new company, you typically it sounds like, leave the founders in place to continue to develop their product, and just figure out how it fits all together, which I'm sure you do, way before the actual acquisition. But

Jim Breese 16:09

yeah, I mean, there's two types of deals, you can either bring the founders, you give them the option, you know, like, some people have been working for a decade on these products. And you know, what you've come to find out is that they want to continue to build, I feel like they were looking for an event like this to like, say, all right, to validate, we did the right thing, now, we have the juice to go and squeeze for like a lot longer. So most of our I think all of our apps, the founders are still there, there's actually two of them that they're not there. But that's okay, we've had we have developers, like in house developers that take those over, and we let those brands persist as well. Like, we haven't rolled up everything into like one brand name, you know, and we can get into that a little bit later about the different kinds of strategies for aggregators, but yeah, you know, bring, try to bring the founders in, because they have that core vision, at least bring them on for a certain amount of time. So they can do the transition phase and kind of give us the, you know, peek behind the curtain. So we know how to actually build a work this app, you know, taking over our code bases now, no easy feat. So you know,

Noah Rahimzadeh 17:05

absolutely. And I'm happy you brought up the idea of like, interoperability across the stack, do do all of the apps today. And I know reviews.io is very recent, right? Yeah, at least the public announcement of that, do all of them when you acquire them? Like is there an immediate plan to integrate them across one another? So that if somebody wants to plug in by all of them, and plug them all in seamlessly, like that's an option? Or is that like, super near sighted for me to even think that that are easier for me to think? No,

Jim Breese 17:41

it's not ignorant at all. I think that's that is like the crystal vision, we'd love to have to be a blow I have a lot that a lot of interoperability between the apps. But look, there's two ways to create a platform, you either rebrand everything as the parent company and bring everybody kind of interoperable, or you allow these brands to kind of grow on their own and create their own name brand. We have kind of gone with the ladder there. And people are still kind of like in control of their destiny. There is some interoperability, there's you know, tech integrations, things of that nature. But if they can this, like the second, third and fourth year of our business, we'll do a lot more of deeper integrations, deeper ability for customers to get out get a bulk discount, but you know, we're kind of working on, it takes a long time to build these types of things up. You know, m&a is you think, Hey, you just give them some money. And then you bring the business in, it's a lot more, there's a lot of, you know, gelling that needs to happen and things that need to come together to combine businesses combined cultures to combine customer bases even so it's a long process. Yeah.

Noah Rahimzadeh 18:40

Yeah, that makes sense. So you have you said seven or eight apps under the portfolio right now. I'm curious what went into, you know, the what are what goes into the evaluation process? And then I'd love to start with like, the current portfolio and then get into what your what categories, you're really interested in taking a deeper dive in, what do you think will flourish in 2023 given, you know, the macro economic conditions and what we're seeing across the E commerce space more

Jim Breese 19:14

specifically? Yeah. So the question like so what we have now we have reviews that IO viral suite conversion bear, which is a suite of like, you know, 20 different apps. And then we have Robo Turk, which is address validator, Appa calm, which has a couple apps, rich returns, order bump, and then next sale. So that's our current portfolio. And that's been built over since October 2021. So the past, what 1415 months, 16 months, we've been putting that together reviews i o being the latest one for us. And then, you know, assessing app and so your other question is assessing apps to acquire right. You know, so I mean, the the market is full of great apps and lots of opportunities, I think, and you know, when we looked at all the Shopify apps, all 7000 of them, we continue to look at them and they're all different stages, you know, we had like Matt Tennant house and Arjun Batra from our, our CEO team. And then Matt is on our m&a team. And then our, you know, investors, everyone is looking at sending us leads. So you go through a lot of leads, you go through a lot of off platform stuff as well. And it's a long due diligence process, you know, you got to talk to these founders are all at different stages of their business. And if you find a funder, that's way too early for us, you know, you still stay in contact with them, because our business will be around for 5678 years. So when you're ready, and you're at XYZ, you know, spot, then let us know, and we're going to try to stay in contact with them. But I think a few main things to look at when you're doing m&a in this space is like this app has to solve a real problem. You know, we've had an environment of 0% interest rates, and like VC money that just flooded in, and like everybody that had an idea was able to get funding, and it was not conducive to building, you know, real value, and you're seeing those things being flushed out of the system. So I think solving a real problem is number one. And for us, they've got to be a market leading solution with a core product market fit, you know, where it's like, hey, if the lights or if the marketing stop today, you would still be able to keep your your core business going, that people still would find you, they still love you. Another one is excellent reviews, you know, you can have a great app, a founder can tell a great story, they may be a marketer, they may be a presenter and are like look at this great thing, and it does all these good stuff. But it's like no one's giving you feedback on that publicly through reviews. And that's kind of a red flag there. Another thing we look at is high retention rate or improving retention rate, right churn is a really big thing. And if people don't find value in your app for the long term, then we're we can be bleeding money at some point. And lastly, I think he's still having juice to squeeze I brought up earlier, you know, like, if you're at the peak, and your valuation is could also be way too high, potentially, or is like there's nothing else to do to tangentially connect you to other parts of the market or to create new feature sets. I mean, there's always going to be opportunity, but I think there needs to be a few obvious, you know, forward path to success in there. But also, there's a lot of like, you know, variables, it could be lots of different types of businesses, you know, the ones that I named earlier, they're all at different stages that we've acquired. And that's what makes our platform great is because when you join app hub, as a founder, or you know, bring your business in, you get to learn from everybody else in like, where they're at, and their different sets of knowledge and what they've experienced. And you know, it's not just about creating cost savings, any PE firm can create cost savings, you know, it's about creating true learnings for the founders so that we can improve these apps and you know, improve the value of the business.

Noah Rahimzadeh 22:36

Yeah, yeah. That's, that's some great criteria, I think, and really helpful to get like a view into how you assess. You said, the crazy stat of 7000 apps in, in the Shopify ecosystem alone, and it's probably, you know, there's probably been 10 More launch today, at least, yeah. We obviously fit in that space. Maybe? Well, first question is, there's inherent overlap a lot of times like across across apps, even if they're not solving for the same core problem, right. A lot of them will have some functionality that overlaps with, like, for us, we have some partners that offer lighter weight versions of what we have, but we still partner with them, because they're really good at what they do well, and we're really good. We do well, how does that sort of play a factor in your evaluation? So I would, would you acquire a company that has some overlap with an existing portfolio company?

Jim Breese 23:36

Yeah, so we've done that. Exactly. We've done that. So we have conversion bear, which is a set of apps. And they have an upsell app called honeycomb. It's a very good upsell app it's in but its pricing model is different than the other one, which is called order bump, an order bump is primarily focused on Shopify Plus and so it's just you know, you kind of address different markets. One is selling up market one is selling to mid market, it does have a market and plus people in there so it's just you know, it depends on where it fits, is it going to cannibalize us? There's a lot of considerations also like how far is the product what kind of penetration does it have into the market? Things of that nature so yeah, nothing's off the table you just kind of have to look at each deal and individual basis and say what what are we looking to get out of this you know, you can buy a company you can buy a creative revenue, but you know, what are you actually looking to acquire from them that help your portfolio go to that next step? And that's going to it's a very nuanced analysis you need to make every time you go to make an offer on a company.

Noah Rahimzadeh 24:30

Sure. And then in the case of reviews for reviews on IO, for example. I'm curious if anything specific about like reviews themselves like you've and set it in, you know, your your criteria when you're evaluating apps that reviews are super important. Mariah and I, you know, I think have the same belief, especially as it relates to like our merchants and including reviews on product recommendations on our tracking He was like a really nice use case that we launched last last year. But I'm curious, just just generally speaking, is part of it also, like being like really bullish on a certain category of app or like a certain problem that needs better a better solution? Or is it really just looking at like the fundamentals from a business perspective? Does that?

Jim Breese 25:26

Yeah, no, that makes good question. And, you know, there are some categories where we really need to go and get something and reviews was one of them. You know, it's it's a critical process. I think it's like 93% of people in E commerce like that our consumers use reviews to make a purchase decision, you know, and so going to find a market leader, the market leader reviews on IO was a very important thing to go and get. But I think it's also focusing on core fundamentals I brought up earlier a lot of bad behavior was fostered during these kinds of like, like 0% interest rates, where everyone can kind of build something. But when you get to like, what is ecommerce what is happening in commerce, and it's like, word of mouth marketing is very important. That's how things spread. And this is a new way reviews. Io is a new way to spread that word of mouth marketing. And it's just, it's a beautiful app that does so many amazing things. Calum and Tom and their team have done an amazing job building this over the past. Like past decade, I think 1112 years, you know, in this whole team, you know, I don't know everybody at the team, but they've done an excellent job. So it's focusing on, you know, certain categories that are not going to go anywhere, you know, like, you might see some fancy like, Oh, these tag managers and this thing, and like something is very technically like, it's bleeding edge. But there's certain things that are just like core to the essence of sales and transactions and reviews to IO is one of those. Yeah, yeah,

Noah Rahimzadeh 26:44

we are. We are super bullish on reviews heavy on reviews. Yeah. Also, like even for Malomo, right in your eye, like, we're always looking for that social proof and validation. However, we can get it.

Mariah Parsons 26:57

Yeah. I mean, it's like one of those things that I feel like now. I feel I forget who you're talking to know about this in a other in another podcast episode. But like Amazon, I feel like set the president because they, like are so heavy with those reviews. And now it's like shopping online. You know, you see something without a lot of reviews or something that doesn't have any reviews. And you're like, Is this a new product? Like what's like, because no one tried your game? Like you're rolling dice. Exactly, exactly. And especially with, like, I just noticed my own habits. And if I find something from say, like an Instagram ad, or a Facebook ad, and then I'm still like, a little bit skeptical, sometimes just depending on if I don't know the brand, or if like, they're not verified whatever. And so if you go into, like, their website, and there's no reviews, then you're like, Okay, this is just like, I'm not ordering from here, it's not worth the risk. If like, you know, there's going to be like, Is my product going to be shipped to me if people try this? It's yeah, it blends into a lot. For like the consumer, and then also, just like merchants and buying habits and like, so both the tech and the Yeah, the consumer side of it, super lives

Jim Breese 28:19

are busy, we have so much data coming into our life, you know, like, we do Lean on people, you know, like, alright, it's got, you know, one, it's got 50 reviews, and one's got 200,000, you're gonna go to 200,000, you know, read now we're gonna get to the point where minimum 10,000 reviews on a product on Amazon, or you're like, not going to look at it, it also that creates some bad behavior, too, you know, with merchants, paying for reviews and things of that nature, which I think Amazon is doing a good job flushing that out of the system as well. But yeah, I mean, reviews and social proof and testimonials are very, very important into convincing your customers that they're making the right choice, even as a $5 item or a $500 item. You're still reading reviews on it, right? Because it's that moment, once you open the package, and it doesn't work. You're like, What the hell, dude, why? Why did I even buy this even? It was like 30 cents. You know, like, for example, like we bought, I had some fun do last night for the first time. We bought five domestics. And they were like, They came all janky and it was and I was like so, so mad. Because they didn't have reviews on there. I was like this one, like, they look good. You know, like, they had great pictures. And I was like, this is where I broke my kind of, you know, model of like, only get the highest reviewed ones. So yeah, it's just a small thing where I was like, I was disappointed but so we end up using forks last night, which is okay, it worked out but just like you wanted that fondue experience, you tried to create it and you were let down. You know, that was part of our experience last night. Yeah. Never write that like

Noah Rahimzadeh 29:44

That's awesome. How was the fondue? I was excellent and had fun day for so long. And it's top of my mind.

Jim Breese 29:51

I've never I've never had it. It was my birthday yesterday. So yeah, she surprised me and I had not she's like we're gonna make something you've never had it before. We're in. So we made our own fondue. I don't know where we're like cheese is a couple types of cheeses and then like tart cherry juice cornstarch, my I had some wine that I've made a couple years ago, there's been aging, so I put some wine in there. And it was just, it was a beautiful like, and I made some homemade bread. And it was just excellent. So

Mariah Parsons 30:17

happy birthday. So fun. Yeah.

Noah Rahimzadeh 30:20

Sounds like a lovely birthday dinner.

Jim Breese 30:22

It was excellent. That's awesome.

Noah Rahimzadeh 30:26

Okay, so when you look across app hubs portfolio, now you got reviews as the latest, what are the categories in 2023? Whether you know, there's there, there's obviously a lot of assumptions about what we're going to see on the macro side, there's a lot of E commerce specific assumptions. And I think there's no consensus really. So whether or not those assumptions play a part or not, where are the gaps and app hubs offering right now that are like sticking out two or three categories where you're like, we are really keen and looking heavily into these spaces?

Jim Breese 31:00

That's a good question. You know, and that's, that's a question I think, a little bit more for Matt. And I think it's, you know, it's not any specific categories. It's like, our job is to build revenue and to grow a business. And it may not be in specific categories. But I think, looking at it in a sense of what businesses are going to do really, really well this year. I think those are going to be apps that save merchants money and demonstrate tangible ROI, there is no question about it that the macro is not is it's not going to improve, like by q2, and like everything's hunky dory, you know, like, there's still Max pain to be felt. So I think that, you know, merchants are turning out of ecommerce, and those that are sticking around or slowing down their tech spend. It's like a real fact of our business. Like, if you work on Shopify, you have the built in Shopify churn sitting on your turn as well. So you need to solve a real problem and not just build something you think that merchants need. So I think they're, you know, for 2023, something that sexy and hot, I think is AI, you know, I'm on Twitter, you see all these people talking about it, I don't think it's gonna replace people, I think it can like reduce the human time spent on things. But I think it's going to turn marketers into like narrators or prompters, versus having to do all the heavy lifting, you know, like, Jack GPT, please write the 10 Google Ad titles that are 30 characters for XYZ business that are optimized for high click through rate, you know, tell it what you want it to do, it will get you 85% of the way there, then you can massage things. But overall, I think it's going to get back to again, great operations and the basics of E commerce, you know, like, along for a long, long time, people have been creating businesses that were not really businesses, they were just VC funded growth machines that grow at all costs, but they weren't really putting out that ROI. So I think cross selling and upselling is going to be a big thing. You know, like, some merchants don't even know that that exists, and that there are tools to do that. You know, and this literally shows ROI immediately. I think Analytics, you know, beyond just like CLTV and revenue, like give me actionable insights like ga 4.0 is turning on for everyone in July. If you don't have your tag implemented, you better get it implemented. And what can you pull from that tag? And how, you know, what actionable insights can you give to people? I think store design is going to be super cool, like Malomo. I love the kind of ways you optimize like the most viewable pages, people are checking their shipping status, like, you know, 567 times, that page is very, very valuable real estate. So what can you do to make more money on that page? So I think that's going to be something special, we have a new app called checkout there. That's on Shopify, for Shopify, plus they have a new Shopify has a new API for checkout. So it's been one of the ones he launched as of recent. So it's not always about buying apps. Sometimes we're doing more development on the internal side, too. And I think marketing automation is going to have you know, it's really big heyday, you know, there's been a lot of marketing automation coming, but I think it's becoming more for the average merchant, you know, you have to understand merchants are not tech people, in most cases, they need it very, very easy. That's why things like Zapier are very successful. So you know, you won't be able to give a merchant the feel of having a full time employee for the cost of a steak for like a one steak dinner, you know, per month, if you can give them that kind of value, you will have no problem keeping them as a customer. So those are my few categories, I think that are going to back to basics type of things.

Noah Rahimzadeh 34:11

Yeah, it's it's funny that you said AI. I immediately thought So John, on your team, who I again, I met in Toronto at Shopify, his conference this year. We sort of hit it off, you're having some drinks, and we ended up talking about podcasts. And he recommended a podcast called prof G pod, which I which has become by far my favorite podcast find of 2022. And I was listening to it this morning, and he was doing his 2023 predictions. And he said AI is going to be like the biggest thing in 2023. So sounds like between you and Prof. G

Jim Breese 34:48

Yeah, I mean, there's no confirmed. Yeah, and you look at like, like, I think yesterday Microsoft said hey, we're gonna roll chat GPT into Bing and make it like an actual search engine and not just some like, nebulous tool that nobody but their grandma Unlike people that work in corporate because they can't install Google Chrome browser use, so I think you're gonna see like a big cannibalization, like of Google, you know, of their ad platform. Because now I can go there, I don't have to worry about the top ranking article, I just asked chat GPT, what's the answer to this, and it gives me enough to like be directionally correct. And then I can maybe have a more pointed search. But you know, a lot of stuff is going to go away, I think for you might see search volume decline on a per capita basis, we'll see. But I think it's a very exciting time. I don't like that. I don't think it's going to replace us as marketers, I don't think it's going to replace tons of jobs. But I think it's going to make us much more efficient. help us be more creative, get past creative blocks, like, again, give me 10 ad titles, like some days, I just have a headache and a block. I don't want to do it, but I have to redo ads. So give me something to work with. And then I can, you know, you can't edit anything if you don't have a first draft. And if chat GPT can get you to first draft very quickly, you're gonna be in a much better position to be an effective marketer.

Noah Rahimzadeh 35:57

Totally, totally. Yeah, the the chat GBT thing is just incredible. It sounds to like, you know, a lot of the predictions are, you said, sort of get back to basics. And a lot of the more tactical, I think, advice that you had was sort of around, like, understand how to grow through your base, and don't just focus 100% on acquisition. So would you agree with that? And if so, like, what role do you think retention now plays in like this new age of cost savings and needing to be really efficient with your growth? Yeah,

Jim Breese 36:36

I think like, hey, look, user acquisition is great. But a lot of user acquisition over the past few years has been, you know, through paid channels, you know, grow, it all costs, whatever it costs, get them in there, we'll make it back over time. But that like that kind of is gone. Now. I think retention is probably the most important thing, for any business to stay alive, right? It predicts current revenue and future revenue. It's almost like a net promoter score as well, to a certain extent is like, Hey, do people really care what we're doing here. Because if you have like a very low retention rate, it's very like, demeaning on your mental state, when people are like, we worked our asses off to get people from the door. And then like, they're leaving in two months, like we haven't gotten even maybe, you know, 70% of our money back, depending on the way you acquire them. But I think retention is going to be the most important metric for SaaS companies going forward, like you just cannot ignore the fact that money is falling out, fix the holes in your bucket before you go add new features, or go acquire new customers, because optimizing the few percentage points on your convert on your registration page, you know, having interactive exit funnels, for a cancellation, all those things are going to play a much bigger role when you go and have the ability to go acquire more customers, because now that bucket has a lot less holes in it. So I think it's very, very important to not ignore the fact that if you have high retention, you have an issue. Or if you have to, if you have a low retention, you have an issue, you need to take care of that because it's not just going to magically fix itself. Because you see founders were like, they just don't get it. Well then explain it to them, demonstrate it to them, educate them, show them, you know, yeah, so retention is going to be big.

Noah Rahimzadeh 38:10

Yeah, I've said this that on the podcast before, but it's like, it's just always top of mind for me ever since I saw it a couple months ago. And it was a Shopify number that said, like 20, or sorry, in 2013, the average ecommerce merchant lost $9 For every new customer on that first purchase. Today, it's $29, maybe, you know, it's more than three acts in 10 years, and that's continuing to rise, while at the same time return retained customers coming back for repeat purchases has grown from a revenue standpoint. So like, you're losing money on acquisition, you have to keep them to just get to break even, while at the same time your customers who are coming back are actually making money on every single purchase. So to your point, Jim, you know, I think that I totally agree with you, obviously a little bit bias, but I also believe that there's data there to back it up. And I think that brands do 100% need to start optimizing not just like, their mindset and their approach, but like their stack, to, to retention and maybe even think about investing more there than the traditional acquisition channels this year.

Jim Breese 39:29

Yeah, I mean, spend q1, figuring out how you can pull a few knobs run a few tests to see if you can improve these metrics, you know, it's about the you know, the integral of over small things over a long period of time, and if you're, you know, gonna be around for a while then do those small things. They may seem very unsexy and unfun. But like, you're going to need to test your checkout page if you're a merchant, you need to do that you know, like there will always be a winner in the AB test. So run the test and if you have the winner now great you at least can feel good when you go to bed that we have The best page that we could possibly have, but yeah, you need to work on retention and spend q1 doing that, while things are shaking out with the macro. You know, we have no clue what's going to happen.

Noah Rahimzadeh 40:09

Right? Yeah, I'm, I'm a little bit pessimistic as it sounds like, things, things are gonna get worse before they get better. Yeah, I

Jim Breese 40:19

mean, look, the the Fed has like, very crude, broad tools, and they did a bad job with letting inflation run high. Now they're gonna have to over tighten, to make sure that they don't let this thing perpetually run. Now we're gonna start copying over last year's larger inflation numbers. So you may see like, year over year inflation go down. But if it's still persistent, you might see them like back off, and then you get a second dip of in for a second wave of inflation in the third or fourth quarter this year. We've and this is all conjecture, you know, I have no idea. This is just like a thesis, we guess at it. But, you know, people's pocketbooks are being squeezed. You know, so we'll see what's happening with it. I think it's an interesting time to be watching watching the world. You know, I It's a lot, but it's something interesting, and it really affects your life. So you should pay attention to it.

Mariah Parsons 41:05

For sure. Yeah.

Noah Rahimzadeh 41:07

Is there what happens in that case? For E commerce?

Jim Breese 41:14

In the double inflation a duck? Wave? Man? That's a good question. It's an excellent question. I think you see people I think that some businesses were are like, still on teetering like, Hey, should we keep our store open or not, we're at breakeven right now. And if they start to see, cost just ballooned, that they can't, you can't stop the cost of envelopes going up or inputs for your product going up. And if it gets become too, too costly, you're gonna have to take cost increases in price increases, I know. So you're like, Oh, we don't want to be corporate greedy. And this or that we have an ethos that we don't do that. But like, bro, this is business, we need to make sure you have a margin, like get to protect your margin. And that's just the way it is, you know, so when they say like, 50% of inflation is from corporate profits like, well, when you have an input go up by $1, you need to double that because your margin is supposed to be 50%. That's makes sense that is gone up by 50% have contributed from corporations doing that. So I think you'll see people taking more price increases, I think you'll see some customers start to buy down, you know, trade off for cheaper alternatives, I think you'll see maybe less frequency and purchases. Like if you're doing beauty products, maybe someone was trying to stretch that beauty product out a little bit longer, or things of that nature, like nice to have as may be, you know, kind of going away, but hey, what can you do to adapt to that? Do you need make a lower level product? Do you keep them involved with your brand in a certain way? You know, and if hey, look, those people that are kind of trading down are not buying from you? How can you still keep them engaged? Once their pocketbook gets a little more padded? You know, that's where content comes in, like, keep them a part of your community still. So I think there's still value to be delivered, you may not be making money, but I like this one too many communication of content. It's my favorite thing to do. You know, like we're tripling down on content this year for our business, because content is like its intellectual property, you get amortization of revenue automatically, you know, every year, it makes you more money, and you don't you get to sell while you sleep. So that's kind of what I think will happen. But who knows, you know, it will, it's going to be very interesting.

Mariah Parsons 43:16

Real quick, Have either of you read Marcus Sheridan's book they asked you answer, because that's all about like content, and I'm currently reading it. But like, kind of what you just said, Jim, like, really focusing on content to help grow your company and like grow the relationship you have with your consumer and that's what it's all about. Oh, definitely recommend it. But I was curious if you read it because it seems like very similar to your beliefs and driving content and yeah, all of that great stuff.

Jim Breese 43:49

Yeah, I mean, I am a very big and I noticed guys polarizing to Gary Vee I love like the early Gary Vee. I haven't listened to him for a year or two, when he started doing the NF T's and all that stuff. I was like. Yeah, but look, what he's saying is like, look, intention is the biggest currency on the internet. You know, that's what people do very wild things to gain attention. But you can gain attention in your small niche, you do not have to be Tim Ferriss, you do not have to be Andrew Huberman. You do not have to have a million people watching you, you just need the right people to be watching you at the right time. And I think that's what a lot of entrepreneurs, they, you know, you don't have to create content, you can just document what's going on, you know, like, we don't create content, our business, we document what's happening within our business, what our customers tell us what we are seeing on the front lines, and if you get a point where you create content, that's great, but like, just document what you're doing, and share that. You know, I think it's very important.

Noah Rahimzadeh 44:43

Yeah. Yeah. One thing that I wanted to circle back on that you said earlier, and I'm wondering if, you know, the macro sort of is affecting this. We've had some customers of ours that have been legacy customers. isn't done really well in E commerce, you know, churn because they've shut down all of their e commerce operations. From your perspective, Jim, like, what what is a reason that a brand would like just completely overnight, basically shut down ecommerce and focus solely on, you know, the big box retailer. Business model,

Jim Breese 45:21

customer acquisition cost, you know, DTC is very, very cool, you get to get right to the customer. But, you know, sometimes when you can get a deal with target to get an end cap, and you can move 50,000 units, you may not make a lot on each unit, but you're getting huge brand recognition, you're getting the cosine of a target or a Walmart or a Whole Foods. Yeah, so and like, look, it's a numbers game. They're not just doing this, like, oh, I don't like this. It's not fun. It's like, no, it's financially not the right thing for us to be doing. We have the connections now to go to big box retail, to do these other things. You know, I think that's it's probably not a finance thing, a customer acquisition cost thing, like you brought up, you know, losing $29 for every customer that we bring in. Myers is not real, Walmart's not doing that for you know, so it's like, hey, we can still keep our brand alive. And then if e commerce comes to a point where we find a person that can run inside of our business, e commerce, then we'll we'll jump back into it, but I think there's probably a combination of customer acquisition costs, depth of talent, you know, that, you know, how do you run it like it's a totally different animal doing DTC versus you know, distribution through a large channel like I got a Walmart or a Target a Whole Foods. And some people go directly to the targets and the whole foods in the Walmart's you know, I have a friend Cynthia, she has a company called bloomers Island, and they've got a lot of great products for kids. And they got to deal with target. And it just like totally blew her business up. But that relationship has turned into a lot bigger things for her, you know, so you just don't know until you knock on the door. And someone answers.

Noah Rahimzadeh 46:52

Yeah. Yeah, that's a that's a great perspective. I've been really perplexed by it. But I think your answer and some thoughts I had along the way, make it sound a lot more like, nice, in a lot of ways. Like, you know, I've kind of thought about it as like, a dismal, you know, outcome. But, but now that I think about it, it's like, what's so bad, you have to have, you know, this steady stream of customer who's not millions of individual customers, but one or two big, big box retailers, and a lot more consistency, a lot better ability to forecast and figure out, you know, the next one that you can go after, and if you know, the direct to consumer route was burning, burning cash, but this route is, is not earning cash, then I can see how that would make sense for a lot of businesses. So at all costs, I'm sure that they're, you know, very grateful for the fact that their DTC, DTC business probably allowed them to get to, you know, the point where they were able to approach a Walmart or Target and in have a seat at that table.

Jim Breese 48:06

Yeah, I mean, with the buyers for those brands are on TV are on Instagram, you know, they're on there looking at these things. So you need it to do that, you know, it's not like all for naught. But yeah, right. Now, it doesn't make sense. For some people, it's like, let's continue to work with these big retailers. When it becomes financially viable, we'll go back to offering maybe a certain subset of our products, or like only the most expensive ones that we think we can move extra units for. Yeah, I think that's it's probably a financial choice. I don't think that people are so short sighted, they're like, you know, this is too hard. We're done with this. There's too many internet companies, they don't want to do this newfangled internet thing. There's too many, you know, distribution channels, there's too many marketing channels, I think it's probably a financial thing. And the board at all those companies is probably like, hey, look, dude, we need to make sure we don't lose money. Like it's again, 2023 is about survive at all costs. Capital is super expensive. So if you're not profitable, right now, find a way to become profitable. Because you're not going to find VC funding or debt at great terms right now. Because I mean, everyone's licking their chops in the PE and VC world, like cannot wait for you to be at Max Payne. So they can come in and pick it up for 10 cents on the dollar. And then grow your brand to something very, very special, especially with these very, like older brands, you know, like, like, I think here Gary Vee, did K Swiss, you know, you're gonna find things like maybe, you know, maybe these older brands that are just like, we just cannot compete, someone's going to come in, and they're going to do excellent, beautiful work with it. So I think it's creating a nice, fun environment soon. We'll see what happens.

Noah Rahimzadeh 49:34

Yeah. Awesome. All right. So just to just to wrap up on like, a bit of a more positive note, I think, you know, the big takeaway for me, and Jim would love to get your either approval or denial or any additional thoughts is like, you need to maximize your existing customer base and grow efficiently through that, given the higher acquisition costs, but the good news is like There are so many tactics and tools out there that can that can help brands do that. And I think that we're, as an industry sort of focusing a lot more on retention. So those resources are more prevalent now than probably they've ever been before.

Jim Breese 50:14

Yeah, I could totally concur. You know, focus on your core audience. I worked at Panda, there was a stat, and I think it's like from Frito, lay 10% of their customers bring 90% of their revenue. Yeah, it's a very overt act, I think you call it the 8020 rule, right. But I think for some businesses very, very lopsided, like, don't forget that it's not about how many customers it's like, CLTV. And making sure people come back more, make sure they feel appreciated, like these are going to be the years where you may have to do a little bit more, to make customers feel like, it's worse for me to like, forego this expense to come back and buy from you again, you know, like, I may not buy this beauty product, because I want to buy this athletic product. So you have to make them very well aware that it's worth the money, because it transforms their life, you know, there's like a lot of things that are going to be that are great to have, they're just not going to be there anymore. So be thoughtful that in you know, against survive at all costs and become profitable.

Noah Rahimzadeh 51:09

Awesome. All right. Last question. We bring it back to the personal side, you've obviously had a very interesting and awesome career path today. dabbled in the entrepreneurship side and cool, you know, travel journeys as well. What what sort of like advice would you give to anybody, you know, who, who has like an entrepreneurial minded career journey in front of them that they're that they're desiring? And, you know, whether it's a tool or a book, or you know, some sort of advice you received along the way that's helped you?

Jim Breese 51:47

It's a good question. I would say, you know, if you're an entrepreneur, be an action, you can't become an entrepreneur by like watching YouTube videos and stuff, you have to like, do stuff. So I would say like, don't be afraid to look stupid build in public, if you can, if you have the confidence to build a public building public, because you're gonna start getting people rallying around you. But again, ask questions in there, because those answers may not be obvious, and try things that seem basic, I got it, if you don't have the, like, the guts to go out on your own, go work for somebody and get that experience, you know, working a year in a startup that's moving at 100 miles an hour is like an MBA, you know, don't I'm not like an anti MBA guy. But I'm also not like, hey, go to school again, you know, like that cost, it's very hard to recoup that if you're not going into you know, ibanking or something else that's very, very fruitful. And I would say, have humility, you know, the universe will humble you, if you're not, you know, humble, and it'll bring you to your knees, and it'll bring it down to your belly, and you're gonna hurt, you know, so I would say, test, you know, be sure you're testing things, you know, that's kind of another thing, too, is like, what do you what is your ideal outcome? And what are you trying to optimize for, like, have a plan, you know, don't just wake up and do stuff, like, there has to be something you're, you're testing and you know, test fast iterate? And, yeah, just keep it moving. You know, don't You're your own worst enemy. I think one of the things that, you know, a personal personal thing is calm your mind, you know, I do a lot of meditating is a big important thing in my life, in my family's life, take time to be calm and to kind of, you know, we get on our phones, and there's 500 objects, we see that create all these emotions in your body, I think, taking time to calm yourself down. Give yourself that space and that grace to say, what are we what am I really doing here? What am I trying to do for the day? What am I trying to do for the next year or five years? Because it's very easy to get swept up in something like Oh my gosh, it is the end of 2022 I didn't get shit done. I was like, Dude, you know, just be thoughtful and journal, if you can, you know, document your life. You know, I think it's important to do that. Reflect on your career as an entrepreneur. And make your own choices. It's very easy to again, to get swept like to get how do you say, swept up in the whole AI thing like, Oh, I got to do the next cutting edge. It was web three, six months ago, like, stick to a path and get a mentor to I think, you know, I'm giving you a lots of advice here. But I think for me, is having a mentor to like someone you can confide in, say like, things you wouldn't tell your parents or you wouldn't tell your partner, like, you know, and someone who has experience in the space that you're trying to be in and trying to be successful and are the thing you're trying to get good at, I think I have a few mentors and they've totally changed my perspective on things. You know, like I was a, an humble 28 year old 25 year old and you know, they really helped me avoid popping my head a few times where it would have been catastrophic. And I think the if you can find somebody and it's like, how do you find one you just ask somebody like you said earlier, you know, you feel like compelled to help people. There are a lot of people out there like you, like, you know, like no, like Mariah that want to help people just ask them, they would love to be your mentor. You just need to ask and I think that's the one thing that people are scared to be told, No, whatever do I've been told no, a million times. And I'm I'm doing well, like, you know, it's not like my life is easy either. But my life is not as difficult if I just kind of stayed to myself, you know. So that's some kind of advice there, hopefully that someone could pick something that was

Noah Rahimzadeh 55:04

awesome rapid fire. And I would add, you know, the thing that you mentioned up top, which you just brought back around is like, dive in and help people for free. Like, don't expect things in return. But you will get a lot out of jumping into somebody else's business or somebody else's issue and helping them solve the problem. You always learn something, but you also always feel really good about it as well.

Jim Breese 55:28

Yeah, I'll put a pin in this as well, if that, you know, like, Look, I know that in a creative space is like, Oh, if you want me to do their logo for free and this, you know, have some discernment on what to work on for free. This is not like everybody that comes in for free. Like, you're gonna get a lot of opportunities. So use some discernment, like, hey, what am I looking to get out of this, I'm not going to get some revenue out of it. I'm looking to maybe get access to these meetings and be a fly on the wall and learn new things. You know, I want to have access to, you know, different tools, like someone is willing to let you come in and create an Analytics set up for them, great, you have nothing to lose, you're gonna learn a lot, you know, minimally, you're gonna get to see their dashboards and like, Hey, this is what this brand is doing. And I think that's important to have some discernment, but as much as you can try to make yourself available for other people, you know, be a creator, not a consumer as much as you can. There's so much, you know, energy that can come out of your body to create you know, don't just sit on Instagram or Tiktok and scroll. There's a lot of cool shit out there to do.

Noah Rahimzadeh 56:28

I love that that last piece especially Alright, Jim, thanks so much, man. It was great having you really excited to explore other future partnership opportunities with APA but like, are now really excited to get this out to our audience. It's an it's an awesome episode. So really appreciate you joining us.

Jim Breese 56:47

Yes, thank you November. I really appreciate it and I wish you guys much success in 2023 and everybody listening to this I wish you guys much success. It's gonna be a big year.

Mariah Parsons 56:54

Thanks, Jim you as well. Thanks